Over 3 mins to get hot water in kitchen - is this normal?

[LCV]

Hi,

My family have just moved back in from a house renovation just before the Easter bank holiday. When I turned on the tap in the kitchen to wash up and it takes over 3 mins before the water was hot enough to wash up. I had a large kitchen sink put in and I managed to fill that up with cold water which I had to then drain away to replace it with the hot water. It would have been faster (and used less water) if I had boiled the kettle for the hot water. I now wash my hands with cold water after I have used the toilet because it takes so long and as a family so much water is wasted while we wait for it to be hot enough to bathe and shower.

I feel concerned. Is this normal? Before the renovation I did not have to wait long to get hot water to all my taps.

We had a Vaillant system boiler with a 250L indirect hot water cylinder put in. The previous combi boiler was moved from the kitchen to the Utility room. The kitchen is at the front of the house while the Utility room is at the back of the house on the same floor. The previous house was over 3 floors with 2 bathrooms and a loft conversion has taken it to 4 floors and 3 bathrooms. We were told that we would have to wait up to a minute to get hot water in the loft which we said we were fine with but it is actually a lot longer than that and we certainly did not expect the rest of the house to be affected in this way.

I will go back to the plumber to discuss but wanted to get your views and advice first. I am really hoping the problem is to do with a setting on the boiler.

Thanks!

 

[Howsie]

Hi and welcome.

No it's not normal. According to government guidance it should take be no more than 30 seconds to deliver water at 50c so as to conserve water and energy.

Poor design by the sounds of it.

 

[LCV]

Oh no....what can be done at this stage?

Is it the Plumber's responsibility to check this after 1st fix or is it my responsibility to have checked or specified that I wanted hot water as per government guidelines?

 

[Howsie]

Oh no....what can be done at this stage?

Is it the Plumber's responsibility to check this after 1st fix or is it my responsibility to have checked or specified that I wanted hot water as per government guidelines?

The responsibility is most certainly with him!

 

[Howsie]

There are a variety of options available to you but most likely at this stage will be a local heat source such as a small unvented hot water cylinder under the sink.

 

[Jay The Plumber]

I think that there is a legionella risk also..
IIRC, the limit for DHW reaching the furthest tap is 50 or 60 seconds depending on property type..

 

[LCV]

Thanks Howie for the good advice. If you don't mind can you tell me the other options available to me so I can ponder over them before I meet with the plumber. I have sent him an e-mail to let him know and asked for him to come by next week.

 

[tamz]

Sometimes the design of the house dictates where things can be put. The farther away the hw cylinder (or combi) is from the taps, the more water has to be drawn through the pipes.

Your only solution is to put in what is called a secondary return (basically a loop of pipe and a pump)
This is how big buildings like say a hotel works. The hw tanks may be 100's of yards away from the taps but you get hw within 2 or 3 seconds.

Speak to your plumber about it.

 

[Howsie]

I doubt you're plumber will want to pipe up a secondary return now that the renovations are finished. It's without doubt what he should have done in the first place but I'd imagine it's too late now.

If it's only the kitchen tap that suffers then perhaps consider an instantaneous water heater.

 

[SimonG]

Either instantaneous, but slow flow, or a 10 or 15 litre hyco.

Speedflow | HYCO Manufacturing

 

[gassafe]

Hot was as per government guidlines lol... Good luck telling that to your plumber lol!

Sounds like a long dead leg to the kitchen sink, maybe due to the relocation of the hot hw cylinder etc... Maybe possible to reroute the pipe more direct etc, best get him back to check...

 

[gassafe]

A secondary hot water circulation could also be an option or have the Combi feed the kitchen still & not the unvented system!

 

[gastec]

Was your water mains pipe replaced/upsized from stopcock in road back to your property?

 

[lame plumber]

as tamz says it needs secondary return supplied by a bronze pump on a time switch. no brainer if tap is on a long run

 

[LCV]

Thanks for your replies.

Is it too late to fit a secondary return? what level of work is involved to do this? The fastest time for me to get hot water is 52 secs in the toilet on the ground floor. The tap in the loft en-suite takes 4mins.

I still haven't heard back from the plumber. Perhaps he is busy....

 

[rpm]

Thanks for your replies.

Is it too late to fit a secondary return? what level of work is involved to do this?

I still haven't heard back from the plumber. Perhaps he is busy....

Reckon that needs eyes on to answer accurately.

 

[LCV]

Ah I see. Do you think I should call out another plumber to assess and get second opinion?

 

[rpm]

Ah I see. Do you think I should call out another plumber to assess and get second opinion?

If the 1st guy wont come back I guess it`s the only option.

 

[LCV]

I meant after speaking to the plumber (when he gets back to me). I've just discovered that he has fitted my shower incorrectly. When I turn on the shower the hand rinser comes on instead of the shower head so I am losing a bit of faith in him.

 

[Riley]

Is it a digital shower

 

[Scott_D]

Post some pictures of the cylinder etc

 

[LCV]

It is not a digital shower. It is a Hansgrohe manual mixer that operates like single lever tap so lift up to turn water on and swing it to the left for hot and right for cold. You pull the diverter to divert the water to the hand shower. In this instance he has installed it the other way round.

 

[LCV]

Here are some pictures.

 

[Howsie]

Perhaps get another plumber in...?

 

[SimonG]

Cupboards fitted after the cylinders went in? Them immersions might be a bit tight to swap out

 

[ShaunCorbs]

and the port valve right at the back

 

[SimonG]

Combi valve half way up the cylinder. That'll be fun to change.

 

[SimonG]

Obviously done by somebody with no intention of ever coming back to it. Got your certs from building control yet?

 

[Riley]

Am I imagining it or does the prv not join D1 prior to tundish?

 

[Best]

Am I imagining it or does the prv not join D1 prior to tundish?

I think the pressure relief valve (from combination valve) just joins straight into a tee on the D1.
Photo is poor, but if that is the way it is done, then it is sort of okay.
Would have been so much easier and been more proper to have the combination valve high and the relief valve piped with a fall down to D1.
That unvented cylinder is going to need castors on its base to aid removing it for any maintainence or replacing parts. :smile:

 

[LCV]

Oh, I feel concerned by your comments. Are there any recommendations on what I should do at this point? Particularly to aid my hot water situation.

I haven't received any paperwork from him. What does he need to provide to me?

 

[Best]

He is supposed to have filled a detailed form in for building control to have and for the units warranty which is often 25 years.

 

[Howsie]

Get another plumber in. I did smile a little when I saw that blanked off of secondary return.

 

[oz-plumber]

To put it mildly, unless your kitchen sink is over 100 metres away from your cylinder, it would be deemed acceptable for that lag time.

Either there is a major malfunction with a mixer tap - easy fix, or a catastrophic malfunction with the Plumbing design.

Hopefully, for you, mixer tap malfunction

 

[Tjdservices]

I don't think the plumber will be answering,