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Discuss OK for waste to run uphill a short distance? in the Plumbing Forum area at UKPlumbersForums.co.uk.

  1. trf0412

    trf0412 Member

    The previous photo was taken earlier in the day. I've just gone upstairs to take an updated photo. Re. your 2nd point – I believe they put that batten there to temporarily hold the pipes in place as the plaster sets. Re. your 1st point – pipes have been capped off, as mains water is back on, BUT, I don't see any evidence of anything protecting the bare copper from the plaster. And this issue would also apply to the radiator, bath & toilet pipes. How important is this? Is it similar to the issue of having cement corroding copper pipes? I don't think I can face any more alterations – I'm going to need a shower sooner or later :)

    IMG_0186.JPG
     
  2. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs S. Mod Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    Don't see the pic yet ?

    Fair enough that's great

    And for me I would always either tape them if I didn't have much thickness or insulate them

    It's unlikely to cause much damage to the copper but there is a chance

    And it's been raining cats and dogs round my area so go old school either wait till it rains or find a lake :D
     
  3. trf0412

    trf0412 Member

    Forgot to upload it initially, but it's there now.
     
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  4. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs S. Mod Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    Yes it's there to keep the centres at 150mm
     
  5. Ric2013

    Ric2013 Plumber Top Contributor!!

    Yes, cement on copper can cause trouble. That said, my gas pipe at home, installed in 1987, runs straight through the mortar on a supprting pillar. And it's gone horrible and green BUT not leaking yet. Hope this reassures you.
     
  6. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs S. Mod Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    Now you've said that I think I smell gas ;D
     
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  7. trf0412

    trf0412 Member

    See the chases that have been filled above the batten? That's how high up the other guy had set the pipes! Still scratching my head in utter bewilderment! :eek:

    On the advice of a building surveyor, I'm going to remove the short bits of softwood currently reinforcing the joists (where the 1st plumber went crazy drilling holes) and bolt on some longer pieces of 18mm ply on both sides.

    Then I'm going to put down new ply wood with screws that are about twice as long as the 1st plummer/muppet used, as well as using glue. (Based on what's been said here I think I'm happy to go with standard ply as opposed to marine ply.) Then the plumbers will be back on Mon to cut holes for the wastes and fit bath and shower tray.

    In preparation for Mon, I'm also going to try and get all the silicone off the bath and shower tray. One of the plumbers today told me about silicone remover. Anyone used this? Is it any good and is it safe to use on shower tray and bath?
     
  8. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs S. Mod Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!


    Rubbish better off with a Stanley blade and a set of gloves

    Also glue and screw the patches in
     
  9. trf0412

    trf0412 Member

    But not all plaster contains cement, right? I think I spotted a purple bag on our front lawn this afternoon, so it was probably Thistle Bonding Coat and as far as I can see cement isn't mentioned on the fact sheet about this product.
     
  10. Ric2013

    Ric2013 Plumber Top Contributor!!

    I use the Screwfix No Nonsense silicone eater. It helps for getting the dregs off after you've taken the bulk of the old sealant out with a knife. I wouldn't bother for what you're using it for.

    I like showers to be high up, personally, perhaps you changed your mind, I mean your plumber did ;). Still, easier to not use the entire chase than chase a bit more if the customer decides it needs to be higher, credit where credit is due.
     
  11. Ric2013

    Ric2013 Plumber Top Contributor!!

    Even if it were cement, I'm more concerned about the effect on you worrying about this than I am about the pipes.
     
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  12. trf0412

    trf0412 Member

    We have a rain shower head, with a hand held shower on a riser bar, and the distance between the mixer bar and the rain head is fixed. With the lowered pipes the rain head will end approx 5cm below the ceiling (so nice and high), but the way the previous guy did it there was no way it was going to fit!
     
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  13. trf0412

    trf0412 Member

    Just in the middle of putting down hardwood ply, ready for Mon when plumbers are coming to fit bath and shower tray. The screws I'm using are almost twice as long as the ones used by first plumber! Anyway, can I just screw the boards down? Or do I need to glue as well?
     
  14. huddster

    huddster Member

     
  15. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs S. Mod Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    Best to glue as well (stops squeaking) but if you haven't got any screws will do
     
  16. trf0412

    trf0412 Member

    Squeaking would imply slight movement wouldn't it? And wouldn't that mean cracked tiles? In any case, there is only a single join in the whole room, so I'm not overly worried.

    What am I more worried about, though, is that I took the advice of the guy at Jewsons and have laid the sheet of ply in the same direction as the joists and now everything I read says they should be perpendicular. However, the reason for him suggesting this is because the length of the bathroom is exactly the length of the sheet of ply, so by lying them in this direction I was able to rest the long edges of the ply directly on a joist and avoid having to put in noggins along the side. Is this going to be ok? Most of the joists are only 30cm apart, so provided ply isn't significantly stronger along its length, this should be fine, even if not optimal, right?
     
  17. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs S. Mod Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    depends where the joists land in relation to joints
     
  18. trf0412

    trf0412 Member

    Room is approx. 2.44 x 2.20, with 7 joists running down the length of the room. The 5 joists in the centre are about 30cm apart, the two outer ones about 40cm.

    So, the plan was to cut down two sheets of 2440 x 1220 ply along their length, to ensure they meet on the centre joist (leaving cut edges at sides of the room to ensure the uncut edges are the ones that meet on the joist).

    Thought I'd see what the big fat Collins DIY Manual (that I'm sure most households have!) says about this and was interested to see that it says to lay square-edged boards parallel with joists, but most internet advice seems to suggest ply is significantly stronger along its length and that it *must* be laid perpendicular to joists. (But ply is made up of sheets laid in opposing directions, isn't it, so I really don't get why it would be so much stronger/stiffer one way over the other?).
     
  19. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs S. Mod Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    its so you dont have a join in mid air will always pick up a joist with a join
     
  20. trf0412

    trf0412 Member

    So what's the people's verdict? Buy a new sheet and lay it in the "correct" orientation, or leave it as it is?
     
  21. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs S. Mod Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    aslong as your joint is on a joist your fine
     
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  22. trf0412

    trf0412 Member

    I wouldn't have dreamed of not having joint on a joist, esp. since it's not T&G! No doubt our first 'plumber' would have found that acceptable though.
     
  23. oz-plumber

    oz-plumber Plumber

    Re: First Plumber.

    What did you end up negotiating with him for payment?
    You've found more issues with his work after you 'sacked' him.
     
  24. trf0412

    trf0412 Member

    First plumber had broken down his quote into plumbing / hardware materials / plastering / tiling. We ended up using our own plasterer, and agreed the price for plastering directly with him. The element of the quote for hardware materials was paid as a deposit before the job started. No tiling had been started. So, when I sacked him, the only question was how much of the 'plumbing' element should be paid. He asked for around 55% of that figure. Had the job been done correctly, I suspect a 55/45 split between 1st fix and 2nd fix might have been about right.

    At the time, I knew the wastes needed to be redone, and I wasn't happy about the holes in the joists (although there wasn't much I could do about them by that point), but I didn't appreciate the full extent of his incompetence, so I agreed to pay about 50% of the plumbing element, because he hadn't removed the rubble from ripping out the bathroom.

    Now all the subsequent issues have come to light, however, (and see next post for yet another instalment!) I am looking into my options and will shortly be sending him a Letter Before Action asking for a full refund.
     
  25. trf0412

    trf0412 Member

    Just taken up last piece of OSB to replace with plywood and discovered a couple of scorched Speedfit fittings! (See photos). I know how this happened, but hadn't realised the plastic pipes were affected. Basically, when plumber 1 was fiddling around trying to fit the bath waste, he knocked a copper pipe which then sprung a leak. He soldered the joint to stop the leak and in doing so burnt a small patch on the underside of the OSB (no big deal) but what wasn't visible before now is how the fittings also got burnt.

    Can these be left as they are or should they be replaced?? The joints themselves appear to be fine and there's no evidence of any leaks, but still thought it best to check.

    IMG_0235.JPG

    IMG_0239.JPG
     
  26. trf0412

    trf0412 Member

    And can anyone advise whether this bit of pipework going to our towel radiator is ok? The fat pipes (22mm?) are the cental heating flow and return pipes, so it makes sense to come off these, of course. But the thing that caught my untrained eye is the fact he's used a T piece as opposed to a straight piece, so there's a capped off little orphaned section of pipe which is completely unnecessary.

    IMG_0226.JPG

    IMG_0227.JPG

    IMG_0228.JPG
     
  27. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs S. Mod Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    Replaced
     
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  28. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs S. Mod Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    That's a mess best to re do it if you can
     
  29. Ric2013

    Ric2013 Plumber Top Contributor!!

    The scorched fittings:

    The one on the right seems like a trace of smoke damage (never heard of a heat mat eh?) and is probably fine, but the one on the left looks like he's probably soldered right up close to it and probably overheated the internals via thermal conduction down the copper pipe.

    The pipework for the towel radiator goes down before it goes up, so it shouldn't airlock, and it will probably work alright, but seems to be a mess of various branded fittings unsupported and installed under strain. I wouldn't entirely trust it.

    I'm not expecially worried about that short bit of orphaned pipe.
     
  30. oz-plumber

    oz-plumber Plumber

    I felt sorry for you at one stage - then I took it back.
    Now I feel genuinely sorry for you - teetering on 'morbidly sorry'

    Those fittings he soldered, he didn't even disconnect the plastic fittings.

    Anything melted / scorched - just replace.
    Also the mix match of fittings - replace.

    I would be sending the plumber some of the photo's you have put on here and asked for more than a refund.

    I would threaten him with small claims for the full cost of the rectifications that are needed due to his standard of work.
    This should include all the costs that you have incurred for the rectifications and anytime you have put in yourself.

    This guy needs a wake up call!
     
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  31. bacon_sandwich

    bacon_sandwich GSR

    I also thought of plumbing as artwork and doff my cap to the proper plumbers who can create art. That is awful, as the consequences of any heat getting to the o ring just replace them and that abortion of pipework for towel rad, just get it done in copper , wont take long to knock that up, properly.
     
  32. trf0412

    trf0412 Member

    Thanks for this advice. The new plumber (who rectified all of the mess created by the first plumber last Friday) came back on Monday to fit the shower tray and bath prior to tiling. I was supposed to have put down new plywood flooring at the weekend, but I left the 2nd piece loose so I could show him the scorched fittings and strange radiator pipework. He agreed that it would be better to change them, but after screwing down the last bit of flooring and leaving plumber to fit the bath, I saw from below that he'd only changed one of the scorched fittings. I think from the angle he was sitting it wasn't possible to see how scorched the second fitting was, so he probably only saw a bit of smoke damage. Anyway, he changed the worse one and the one most likely to have suffered internal damage through heat conduction down the pipe (good point you made about this, as it hadn't even occurred to me), so I guess everything should be fine.

    He also removed the strange T-piece on the rad pipes, but didn't redo the whole thing.

    Re. the mix of fittings, that's because the plumbers who did the radiators used Hep2O and our first 'plumber' used Speedfit, so I don't think it was one guy mixing them. Or is it best practice to carry on using the same fittings that are already there?

    See attached photos.

    IMG_0244.JPG

    IMG_0246.JPG
     
  33. trf0412

    trf0412 Member

    Yes, I need to sit down and work out a plan of action. However, even if I were to go to the small claims court and win my case, is there a guarantee I'll get my money back? I was just chatting to a tiler (who we had round to do our kitchen) about our bathroom saga and he said he once took a builder to court for not paying £2k, won his case, the guy got a CCJ against his name, but never paid...
     
  34. trf0412

    trf0412 Member

    Quick update – bathroom was finished last week, so you probably won't see me lurking around here from now on. Does that mean I'll lose my "Top Contributor" badge or do I get to keep that? :)

    For those who saw my other thread, the toilet ended up being fitted with about a 1-2cm gap between the cistern and the tiled wall. Surprisingly, this looks absolutely fine and I wonder if Duravit designed it to be like this due to the lack of fixing holes in the cistern. I've also since seen quite a few photos online of toilets fitted like this (up close to, but not touching, the wall). There was discussion of fixing something inside the cistern and then attaching it to the wall, to sort of pull the cistern back a bit, but the plumbers felt it would have put too much strain on the bolts connecting the cistern to the pan, so had to be dropped. NB. The cistern couldn't simply be pushed right up to the wall, and fixed with silicone, as the back of the pan protrudes about 2cm beyond the back of the cistern!

    Re. plumber 1, I emailed him and explained I was very unhappy with his work and asked for a full refund. He wrote back asking for evidence of all the things I'd highlighted which of course I was able to produce very readily. After a few emails back and forth, with him arguing he hadn't done anything wrong, he relented and gave me a full refund! Although this whole thing ended up costing me about £2k more than anticipated as a result of his work (not to mention a huge amount of stress and time), a refund of £1250 reduced my losses to £750 approx, which is a bit easier to live with. And I think to get compensation for the additional losses would have meant going through the small claims court.
     
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