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Discuss notice gas safety related advice in the Gas Safe Register Forum - Public Forum area at UKPlumbersForums.co.uk.

  1. Billy Bob Bob

    Billy Bob Bob Guest

    [h=2][/h]
    sorry but we cant condone giving out gas safety related advice to non qualified people this includes all aspects of gas installation and repair,if we see anyone giving out advice that we feel may compromise safety we will close that thread
    thank you for your understanding,and dont be offended if we close your thread but at the end of the day safety does not have a price​



     
    • Like Like x 12
  2. Bernie2

    Bernie2 Guest

    How silly! Information and education is the way forward. What if boiler manufacturers stopped putting installation and service manuals in with their products? The regs say they must be left with the householder. People can read they can simply DIY from them if they wanted to. We just look daft not advising people in the correct way. They can also download the Gas Regs if they want. Why all the secrecy?
     
  3. Dotty

    Dotty Guest

    How many times do yo have to be told?

    If people want to kill themselves that's entirely up to them. They won't be doing it with the assistance from these forums. And I've about had it with you keep questioning the forum rules.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. SimonG

    SimonG Plumber Top Contributor!!

    Gasmans comment was over a year ago!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Ray Stafford

    Ray Stafford Well-Known Member

    This does make me chuckle.

    Bernie's point of view is not without merit. Like lots of things in life, its not a black and white issue.

    However, those who have the responsibility of running this forum have decided on this forum's policy, which has been made crystal clear.

    And the great democratic tool that is the internet means that Bernie can go and set up his own forum, with his own preferred rules and policies. And if more people like his forum than this forum, then he will get the visits and the advertising revenue. And potentially the lawsuits.

    Carry on old chap. Or to use the vernacular - "knock yerself aahhhtt".
     
    • Like Like x 7
  6. Reg Man

    Reg Man Trusted Plumber GSR

    I think there is basic generic gas safety advice we can share with public, but when it comes down to fixing a problem then the shutters are down and nothing can be revealed.
     
  7. gassafe

    gassafe Plumber GSR

    It's a good rule, I like it.. Lets keep,the gas talk the gas forum!

    Next up lets all make a push to make it impossible to buy a gas component without proof of gas safe membership :)
     
    • Like Like x 6
  8. solutions

    solutions Plumber GSR

    :agree: no spares without gas safe id. No gas rated issolaters without id, no cooker hose without id, no gas fired boilers water heaters or fires. Serial numbers for parts and appliances logged by retailer against purchasers gas safe reg. No escaping shoddy work by registeted engineers when the parts are traceable.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  9. Ray Stafford

    Ray Stafford Well-Known Member

    OK, I'll take the other side of this argument. :)

    Bearing in mind our business model, you might expect me to be strongly in favour of this concept, but after thinking about it for a couple of decades, I have come to the conclusion that its a bad idea.

    There are two main reasons - one of principle and one of practicatily.

    Firstly, we live in a free country. The default position ought to be that anything is allowed, and that if things that are banned or restricted we have these controls because there is clear and demonstrable evidence that by limiting an individual freedom, there is a greater benefit to society as a whole.

    We have several levels or degrees of restriction.

    1) Very dangerous items, like firearms, explosives, some drugs and a handful of other items are controlled at point of ownership with laws that are generally enforced pretty thoroughly and are only allowed to be held by people who can demonstrate a clear need for them, and has the relevant protections and controls to stop them from falling into the wrong hands.

    2) Another category, including motor vehicles and gas appliances, are free to own, but are controlled by licencing the skill of operators at point of use (ie driving licence, gas safe quals) and is usually enforced by exception - we wait until there is a problem before we deal with enforcement. Otherwise you would have to prove you had a licence every time you got in your car, or bought petrol.

    3) There is a final group - including alcohol and cigarettes, which we acknowledge as a society are dangerous, but our only attempt to control them is to prohibit the sale to under 18s. This is barely enforced at all.

    What is being suggested is that gas spares and appliances are so dangerous that they should be moved from category two up to category one (along with firearms and class A drugs). I simply don't see the benefit to society that this would bring. Although every death is tragic, there simply are not enough deaths due to preventable DIY gas work to justify such a draconian change. If you really think that every life is so precious than any restriction is worth it to save just one - then you should be arguing for a 20mph speed limit on all roads, or a total ban on alcohol and tobacco!

    My second point is a purely practical one. Banning the sale of gas spares does not mean that every job will be done by a competent engineer. In some cases it simply makes it more likely that a DIYer will use an inappropriate product. Can't buy a gas cooker hose? Don't worry, a length of garden hose and two jubilee clips will do! Can't buy a gas-rated valve? Never mind, use one designed for water.

    Just as prohibition created more problems than it solved, I think that this would actually lead to more DIY disasters than it would prevent.

    Let me offer an alternative solution. Spend less than 10th of what implementing such controls would cost on:

    a) a really good and sustained public information campaign about the dangers of DIY gas work
    b) prosecuting substantially more cases of shoddy and dangerous workmanship

    I'm very sorry to say that if we could track back the origins of all the "hall of shame" jobs, many would not be DIY. They would be done by "qualified" blokes.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2013
  10. Killy Bing

    Killy Bing Plumber GSR

    not to mention the amount of spares outlets would reduce to a few big boys over night, reducing competition and allowing them to push prices up.

    not to mention boiler prices would likely rise as the customer couldn't get them directly, the merchants would know that they would be the only avenue of getting the boilers and milk the opportunity ;)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. tamz

    tamz Guest

    In theory that is a good idea but it will never happen. I'm afraid not enough people die of botched diy gas work to make the politico's blink an eye. Maybe 2 a week for a year or 2 might get them to sit up and take notice.

    On a similar issue it is harder to buy parts for a sprinkler system but that seems to be a closed shop due to insurance requirements.

    Maybe the insurance companies could be the ones with the "power" to deter it.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. Killy Bing

    Killy Bing Plumber GSR

    Some insurance companies only guarantee oil tanks if they are bunded, have a bund built, if metal "serviced".
    i noticed with lloyds they want you to replace the oil tank before or at the end of its design life.

    if the tanks design life if 10 years and it leaks at 10 years and a day, you're on your own.
     
  13. hammers4spanner

    hammers4spanner Plumber GSR

    The arguement of gas parts only sold to gsr is in theory a good arguement however if you compare our industry to mechanics where any old busy body can buy car parts and repair then isnt that just as dangerous??

    money rules imho when it comes to this arguement suppliers will supply to anyone

    and as tamz says the govt look upon our industry as well practiced and run as very few deaths
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Ray Stafford

    Ray Stafford Well-Known Member

    Just as an aside, although we don't sell retail, we sell an enormous amount of gas appliances to organisations other than GSR engineers or firms.

    Councils
    Housing associations
    MOD
    Hospitals
    Schools
    Universities

    I don't know what the overall proportions are, but I bet there are many hundreds of thousands of gas appliances that are purchased by institutions, and then fitted by qualified subbies.

    Speaking as a tax-payer, to be honest I don't want these purchases to have to be made through a GSR subbie, with their markup.
     
  15. hammers4spanner

    hammers4spanner Plumber GSR

    You will never stop the diy numpty from attempting a repair most peeps have common sense a few are just idiots .

    I had a cust phone me up as they had just moved into a new house and was asked to check gas safety etc etc

    the cust watched me do a TT and i informed him they had a drop so i isolated the fire in front room and proceeded to carry out another test, i just happened to peer throught he window and what was the idiot cust doing , using a lighter around the gas pipe !!!!!!

    idiots like that you will never stop
     
  16. solutions

    solutions Plumber GSR

    As usual an excellent rebuttal. An informed and inteligent perspective which shows you have applied more thought to the issue and its total consequences than I had stopped to do. Certainly your last points are definitely something the industry should persue, better policing and prosecution. Especially of rogue "registered" and "unregistered" fitters and repairers.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. PowerFlusher2

    PowerFlusher2 Active Member

    Don't think so, Tamz, An awful lot of people get killed by cars (second only to the AK47 in terms of 'dangerous to humans') every day, still an awful lot of cars on the road though!
     
  18. littlefish

    littlefish Guest

    Just reading through the comments, while you have major DIY chains supplying gas fittings and components to anyone willing to purchase them, the issue of the public tampering and playing with gas will always be around. Perhaps a large advertising campaign by Gas Safe on the TV and in the main stream press will start to educate the public to the dangers of non GSRs tampering with gas.
    This would also create a whole new line of customers seeking gas repairs ect.. This must be driven by Gas Safe and use our registration fees, to finally benefit the GSR engineers.
     
  19. combo

    combo Guest

    If Joe bloggs Diy'er extends a flue pipe, or removes a boiler cover etc...they don't see that as being wrong. I was sat in the pub a while back and someone asked me about the price to fit a cooker, I told them, you have to TT, check clearances, gas rates etc but I was universally shot down by a few ppl round the table '' Oh, you don't need to do all that, ppl have fitted them for years'' . Same on LSC's, I'd notify ppl of NCS and they'd just laugh the stuff off '' It's been like that for years''. The whole image of the industry needs changing and the regs need simplifying too, there's too much confusion.
     
  20. lambchop

    lambchop Guest

    I spoke to a gas safe inspector on why DIY shops are able to sell gas products to general public he told me they went to court to try and stop this but it was thrown out under freedom of trade act
     
  21. Reg Man

    Reg Man Trusted Plumber GSR

    I do not think it went to court, but it was explored as a proposal, through the legalities and it did result in the cross over of how it effected the freedom of trade and was therefore not able to go forward.
     
  22. kirkgas

    kirkgas Trusted Plumber GSR

    If we restrict gas spares to gas engineers we must restrict electrical spares to sparks and some car spares to garages, can see a few of us moaning about that
     
  23. Plumbers Elbow

    Plumbers Elbow Guest

    Pitty this is not the case they do it in Germany but anyone can walk in and buy a boiler.
    Are there any plans to do this in the UK ?
     
  24. Steve ski

    Steve ski New Member

    Boilers not dangerous PEOPLE ARE!!!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  25. Plumbers Elbow

    Plumbers Elbow Guest

    Its true to the point that GSR fitters even ignore gas rates, I have seen countless cookers fitted and the only test carried out is (does the pizo work and does the gas light) the odd fitter does a proper purge most just click till it lights.
    As for boilers its the same they write down the generic gas rates in the benchmark and off they trot, still I am waiting to see a flue gas analyser used, and before you ask yes these guys are fully qualified and on the gas safe register and there are plenty more working on it who have no idea about the gas safe regs/rates etc day in day out, same for many trades people know its easy to fit a boiler and if they make a mistake the boiler will not fire in this scenario they call out the pros, we fix it (with the false knowledge they had a friend of a friend do it) and away they go.
    Maybe boilers should have a slot for your GS card , personally I think only GSR people should be able to buy gas fittings/appliances, we would all benefit from the extra work created, it would basically stop all unsafe gas works, and retailers would not miss out whatsoever the same amount of stuff needs to be fitted just this way by the correct people, its a no brainer.
     
  26. Ray Stafford

    Ray Stafford Well-Known Member

    This comes up regularly, and I won't bore forum regulars with all the reasons that it would a) be completely impractical and b) not achieve what it set out to achieve. The PURCHASE isn't the problem. Its the installation.


    This, on the other hand, may be genius. A chip in your GS card and a slot on the boiler PCB. Boiler comes out of the box in "precommissioning mode" - ie it won't do anything until commissioned with a card in the slot. Then two sets of fault detection. Low pressure? No problem, thats a user code. Allow boiler to restart once re-pressurised. Gas valve fail? Oops, thats a GSR code and boiler reverts to "precommissioning mode" until attended by a professional to put their card in the slot.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  27. Dotty

    Dotty Guest

    Hmmmmm... That would then lock the installer to that boiler which would then mean if he's one of the unscrupulous ones who considers having an fga in the same room as the appliance to be a successful test, then he'd never get caught out, his work rectified and then there's a fatality.

    Going on from this though how long will it be before domestic boilers are monitoring their own poc's and adjusting themselves accordingly?
     
  28. kris

    kris Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    Thats very possible but would have to be a secondary and even a third stage failure because of the nature of thow beast but you could be onto to somethin there croppie, and not only that all readings will be sent to main hub like a smart meter telling customer of any changes in combustion notifying of a problem,
     
    • Like Like x 1
  29. solutions

    solutions Plumber GSR

    Fine till you have to send it off for calibration. Every year.
     
  30. Ray Stafford

    Ray Stafford Well-Known Member

    Not necessarily. It could accept any GSR card that was coded with the relevant appliance.

    It might also keep a record of what cards had been inserted and when, so there would be no question about who last worked on an appliance. The more I think about it, the more I like it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  31. Dotty

    Dotty Guest

    Basically means a phone line needs to be installed. That or it be fitted with a SIM.

    Which, if you're out of range, renders you with a boiler you can't fire up and commission.
     
  32. Ray Stafford

    Ray Stafford Well-Known Member

    Not at all.

    Imagine your GS card has a chip in it, which encodes your name, number and what appliance types you are covered for.

    You go to a domestic gas boiler, whos PCB has a dock for your card. You shove your card in, and it agrees that you are ok to work on this appliance. If your card said that you were only ok for gas hobs, then it would just sit there and sulk. No reason for external comms.

    If there was ever a serious problem, a Gas safe investigator would attend, and put his "boss card" into the slot, which would then tell him the id numbers of the last 5 engineer cards in the slot.

    Simples!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  33. Dotty

    Dotty Guest

    The issue is we get new numbers each year. Plus new businesses start up and others close down. For your idea to be effective the system needs to be live or anyone with an expired card can get the boiler firing.
     
  34. Ray Stafford

    Ray Stafford Well-Known Member

    Unless I am missing something, I don't see why!

    Your card can have dates encoded. The appliance can have dates encoded. If my debit card expires, I can't withdraw cash. Why should we not use the same tech?
     
  35. village idiot

    village idiot Plumber GSR

    As it happens, WB are in the process of designing their new generation boilers to be fitted with smart intelligent software that after the boiler is fitted, it's performance will be remotely measured from Head Office. In effect, if say the pump, fan, gas valve etc started to show the slightest signs of failure, a WB engineer from their team nearest to the property and having the part in van will be sent to knock on Mrs Smith's door and inform her that they have come to change her fan in boiler.

    Imagine the look on her face?
    Mrs Smith: ''You've come to do what?'' Then shouts at boyfriend to come downstairs. ''Jim, get down here. There is an idiot here claiming he needs to change the fan on our boiler? Did you report the boiler as not working? I can here it working as we speak?''
    WB Engineer@ Errrhhh madame, your boiler is fitted with an intelligent monitoring software. It is proactive and tells us when something is about to go wrong. That way we can address it and keep you going without the need for any problems''

    Happy days. At this rate, the small guys will soon be out of business. As if sending their agents round to do the annual service, thus depriving us of income is not bad enough.
     
  36. gasmanrob

    gasmanrob Plumber GSR

    Thank Worcester for that!

    BG tried something along those lines years ago with the classic. It died a quick and extremely sharp death however that was pre broadband days
     
  37. village idiot

    village idiot Plumber GSR


    I think you will find they are doing this in partnership with BG
     
  38. kris

    kris Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    Its gonna be the same as BMW turning an ignition from headquarters or i heard a cracker the other day , the huge green n white machines the farmers drive made by CLAAS, any way i was doing work for this farmer and one of his workers were telling me that the farmer owed claas 24g and one day the machine went dead while driving through the field so james (farmer) called up claas to say he had a problem with machine and they told him it wont come on till the 24g was paid, he paid it right there over the phone and the machine started straight away, sorry for long speel but it seems to be the era of WIRELESS MICRO GIGA BYTES, eh
     
    • Like Like x 1
  39. newcastle phill

    newcastle phill Guest

    But if they were going to install that kind of tec in a boiler then surely they could just extend it to tell the manufacturer whats wrong or if a service is due...

    Then kerching - the manufacturer gets all the work and they pre empt faults or poor performance.
     
  40. drmozaya

    drmozaya Guest

    Hello newbie here
     
  41. stevetheplumber

    stevetheplumber Plumber GSR

    Using that argument ray we would have to move cars up in line with drugs and fire arms as they kill many times more people than the last two put together
     
  42. stevetheplumber

    stevetheplumber Plumber GSR

    Actually ray your comments about the majority of bad jobs being done by tradesmen is mirrored in the crap food many of us eat its all down to price when the public. Stop demanding cheaper and cheaper the quality would improve
     
  43. Ray Stafford

    Ray Stafford Well-Known Member

    Thats partly true Steve.

    Its also in the normal distribution of skills and inclination to do hard work. Both skill and work-ethic are "probably" distributed on a standard bell-curve. That means that there are a few tradesmen that are absolutely crap, a moderate number that are ok-ish, quite a large number that are broadly competent, a moderate number who are very skilled, and a tiny number of utter geniuses.

    Similarly, there will be a few bone-idle, a few more who will do a bit of work when pushed, the majority who will do a decent days work, a smaller number who will go beyond whats reasonable, and a tiny number who are absolute obsessive workaholics.

    Not many will be work-a-holics and completely talentless, although you do get the occasional lazy genius.

    But given the number of tradesmen, even a relatively small percentage of incompetent ones means a lot of duff installations every day of the year. Some will be duff because a good tradesman was put under intolerable pressure to do a days work in 2 hours by a bad employer or a penny pinching client. But lots will be duff because in reality, the percentage of bad trademen is just the same as the percentage of bad nurses, teachers, policemen and, (whisper it quietly) plumbers merchants. :)
     
  44. stevetheplumber

    stevetheplumber Plumber GSR

    actually ray amongst the friends i grew up with the most successful are the lazy ones who were more than happy to let someone else do it
     
  45. newcastle phill

    newcastle phill Guest

    I once read Its proven lazy people are more often than not very efficient and good problem solvers.

    Thats certainly true for me :D:p
     
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