Search the forum,

Discuss Level 3 plumbing and gas courses... in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net

Status
Not open for further replies.
L2 qualified? Mmmm.
Any kid working full time with a half decent plumber/gas fitter doing various jobs over a 2 month period would be far more qualified than any kid doing the college, "Let's get the hoodies of the streets and keep the dole levels down," Level 2.
Excluding lead work that's a FACT.
Go and ask any level2 to take a photograph of the manifold before you start working on it, and he'll have his head under your vans bonnet.
Not sure of your point, my post was answering who can enter a L3 qualification and is accurate
 
Talk about, talking the talk but not understanding walk.
If you say so but come on no need to be rude.
I know now that I made the right move to get out of teaching!
So let me get this straight, your now saying that a Level 3 plumbing course is for designers?
Nope, I think it was clear but in case it wasnt L3 contains design at a basic level in addition to commissioning, fault finding etc. In future vocational L3 will have to be comparative with academic L3s
Not been a plumbing apprentice yourself then Kay ? Why do you say this?
Somebody wanting to learn further skills, develop a deeper understanding, learn new skills will definitely benefit from doing the L3 Not half as much as the college nicking the fees off them.
Nicking fees? Learners want to learn, know the facts, understand the advantages and limitations then there is no nicking of fees. To make that kind of statement about all colleges you will need cast iron proof every college nicks fees, then I would recommend you do something about it
It contains centre based practical so as with the L2 it does give the learner the prospect of applying knowledge in simulated activities
If you say that is akin to real plumbing, I will believe you.
Thought I was quite clear that I didnt say it was the same as real plumbing, I think the title gives that away 'simulated'

This is then a good base line for learners to apply these skills on-site and upgrade to the NVQ Diploma. How they going to do that then they will have forgotten 75%+ of what they were taught by the time they get out there. Its a very good system that benefits learners and employers who wish to take somebody on who has learnt the base knowledge and wishes to build upon it. A very good system when understood, often misrepresented which is a shame.
In future vocational education will play a larger part in post 16 full time education, so centre based learning is here to stay, some people are against it but it wont go away, best to make it work and fit into the apprenticeship and support industry, any amount of personal resentment of these courses will not change government initiatives
If you say so but that not what I am hearing with the continued drive by government to increase proper apprenticeship
Your correct Government want to increase the number of apprenticeships, that doesnt affect the drive to increase standards of vocational full time learning, with employers expected to pay more towards apprenticeships in future any Government drive will struggle without funding.
In addition, Im not quite sure I follow the reasoning behind this course not being suitable at L3 but thinking L2 is. L2 contains many practical skills where being employed in the industry would be very benficial to help develop those skills, were L3 has more knowledge of systems, regulations and generally more theory than practical. Given that many designers enter at L3 standard (Nat Cert in BSE) and go onto degrees and to design these systems including reference to water regs etc. without any practical experience it suggests L3 is more understandable for a non employed learner than L2.
We have to understand that these are not apprenticeship courses, not claimed to be, not designed to be and serve a different purpose. They are very valuable if used for their intentions.
Oh but they are aren't they. They try to teach plumbing subjects to the same level as the apprenticeship 6189, so if they got a job in plumbing are they going to sit through it all again, No.
They are not the same units so they are not taught to the same level, at level 3 the units are not aligned with CPS so YES they will have to take those units again, therefore securing the skills for fully competent installers/plumbers.

Therefore no apprenticeship & for those that understand learning a Craft, it simple can't be done without work.
In an ideal world all trainees would be employed and we all agree that would benefit learning no end, but the simple fact is we are not in that situation. Many many changes to vocational education, apprenticeships WILL change and so will full time courses

They are not going away so we need to work with them so they benefit the industry
 
Last edited:
Not sure of your point, my post was answering who can enter a L3 qualification and is accurate

Hi Kay, what I'm saying is you do not need a piece of paper which states you have level 2 to be able to do level 3.
As I've asked this question to the relevant people, exam setters etc.
Just depends whether or not the college like the cut of your jib IMHO
There's plenty of "plumbers mates" out there, some you can't write too, who most probably know more than some of our new kids on the block
 
Last edited:
Hi Kay, what I'm saying is you do not need a piece of paper which states you have level 2 to be able to do level 3.
There's plenty of "plumbers mates" out there, some you can't write too, who most probably know more than some of our new kids on the block
Apologies I misunderstood, you are correct, the L3 acknowledges this and if this expereince and knowledge can be proved someone can enter L3 without a L2.

I would be wary though, whilst there are many good plumbers mates out there the knowledge in these courses are demanding and they unlikely to have that foundation knowledge even if they have the skills

Not sure its due to the 'cut of your jib' in fairness they have to demonstrate they have enrolled correctly and prove this with auditable evidence, its not a given and if people think they are at an advnatages by jumping L2 they will realise its an error quite quickly if they dont know as much as they claim
 
Last edited:
Hi Kay, what I'm saying is you do not need a piece of paper which states you have level 2 to be able to do level 3.
As I've asked this question to the relevant people, exam setters etc.
Just depends whether or not the college like the cut of your jib IMHO
There's plenty of "plumbers mates" out there, some you can't write too, who most probably know more than some of our new kids on the block

who are the exam setters?
 
You have to look at the basics here really ?
What are the entry requirements on to these courses ?
Yes you have got it they are not the type of people who are in line for degree level that is for sure ,It is sad but true that these days everyone has to have some nonsensical title they are no longer plumbers but engineers ,good old labour and it`s policy of equality and how 50 % of the school leavers should be going to university ?????
90% of the population is thick and out of the other 10 % 90% of them have no common sense so we are doomed !!!!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Kay101, Thanks very much for the "apprenticeship will change" link, very helpful & that is genuine !
I would have had to search for that tomorrow, I have to report back to my company on funding for them in the utilities field, as they have just spent around £1M for 13 of them & received nothing.

So you think I am rude then, well not my intention but often when you have a passion & an understand of all sides of a subject, when you have seen schemes, initiatives & qualifications etc come & go it is difficult not to be forthright in your augment.
Believe you me if it was my intention to be rude you would know about it, comes from working on building sites.

You can argue all you like, you can defend government policy, FE colleges & vocational / post school education of plumbing & apprenticeships, until the cows come home but it does not alter some indisputable trues.
1. Plumbing like most complex craft skills can only be effectively obtained via working on-site & while learning at a training centre at the same time, over a period of around 3-4 years. If you have been through the process you would understand what centuries of plumbers have understood, thats why I asked.
2. Teaching plumbing at anything over level 1 in a college & then expecting students to repeat the process if they are lucky enough to get an Job (or apprenticeship) is just not going to happen, would you want to do that ? If you have learnt plumbing theory why would you do it again because some at a college said it wasn't "fully alined" & is your employer going to wear loosing you for a day to do that.?
3. If you except point 1. Apprenticeships are the best way to learn plumbing, then why would we as tax payers want to support teaching young people something at college that they will not get employment at, what a waste of money but more important their young lives !!!!
Why would we not want to support small companies, who make up the vast amount of the building industry in filling vacancy for real jobs at the time they are needed.

An ideal world? more like an understanding of what is required to still have a industry fit for the future changes, in a world without a lot of tax money to spend.

I think that will be my last words on it Kay.
 
Last edited:
I, like many parents have been in a situation where we take a great interest in just what level of skill, knowledge and experience our kids will come away with when doing the level2 course, and I can assure you that the level of commitment by certain colleges toward their student’s progress will and does vary.

I can painfully remember one occasion where my nipper came home despondent as there had been a gas leakage on one of the main pipes in the classes working environment/room.

The college head came down and informed the whole class that no pupil in that class would be put forward for employment if an employer did contact that college looking for a potential apprentice to employ…that was week one of the course.
One or two students wanted to quit the course there and then. The same pipe leaked again and the students were blamed.
They were informed that the CCTV would be looked at and the culprit apprehended. No-one was ever apprehended. Enough said.
Imagine being stuck in that class!

Level2’s good for confidence building, where students can grasp the very basics: Lead work, tooling, soldering and basic bends, but, it’s no good without experience

Having looked at the Level3 book, I like it, as it shows a whole new aspect of just what’s required in the real world in terms of systems and system design etc. something that isn’t touched in Level2.

Can a person go straight to, or be allowed to go to level 3 without first doing level 2; IMHO, if and only if they’ve gained good hands-on practical experience working with a decent engineer.
Think Chris hit the nail on the head, when he used the word passion.

A passion needs to be cultivated in any kid looking to forward their vocation.
Perhaps too many kids just see it as a means to a wage at the end of the week, and I’m glad I’m not a kid growing up in today’s society.

There was a recent post on here placed by a guest. The guest asked why his taps (ceramic discs) just wouldn’t stop dripping. Some replied: change the cartridge and be done, but TAMZ replied: check your water pressure as it may be low and ceramics need more pressure to close properly. Experience at its best, which very few, if any, class only apprentices would have known about.
 
Last edited:
My college from a while ago stated no level 3 unless level 2 completed 1st.
They said as its modular it was imposible for city and guilds to issue cert for full 3 without full 2.
They said cg check on walled garden.
So although it may well be possible to sign up you cant complete the full qual until done in sequence.
 
My college from a while ago stated no level 3 unless level 2 completed 1st.
They said as its modular it was imposible for city and guilds to issue cert for full 3 without full 2.
They said cg check on walled garden.
So although it may well be possible to sign up you cant complete the full qual until done in sequence.

Hi Phil, here's the actaul reply recieved from C & G.
Dear Paul

Thank you for contacting City & Guilds Customer Services .

"If the individual is a competent level 3 candidate then it is possible. This would be the decision making of the college or training centre that one applies to as they will all have their measure of determining whether they can place a learner on a level 3."

Like they say, it's down to the college.
Colleges looking to make more money perhaps...don't know.
C & G seem to be okay with it, according to their reply anyway?
 
Last edited:
There was a recent post on here placed by a guest. The guest asked why his taps (ceramic discs) just wouldn’t stop dripping. Some replied: change the cartridge and be done, but TAMZ replied: check your water pressure as it may be low and ceramics need more pressure to close properly. Experience at its best, which very few, if any, class only apprentices would have known about.[/QUOTE]

I've only done the 6035 Level 2, and I knew this - does this mean the course is OK after all, or am I just a genius, lol - !?
PS - Went to a house today where toilet draining away very slowly. Homeserve had jetted the drains (twice, a month apart), and informed the lady of the house she needed a plumber to unbox and dismantle the internal soil pipe "as it must be blocked somewhere". Subsequent plumber agreed and quoted her £850. Next plumber changed the flush valve (...?.)
I changed the AAV in the loft - job done. I wonder if the 4 previous plumbers did the 6035 or the 6189, ......hmmmm...interesting.....???
 
As we keep on saying time and again Jules, a piece of paper, does not a plumber make !!!!

It does help though, combine this with we never stop learning, (I didn't know that about ceramic discs) & experience over time & you will be getting close to what is required.

(BTW My monies on the 6035 LOL) :santa3:
 
As we keep on saying time and again Jules, a piece of paper, does not a plumber make !!!!

It does help though, combine this with we never stop learning, (I didn't know that about ceramic discs) & experience over time & you will be getting close to what is required.

(BTW My monies on the 6035 LOL) :santa3:


I agree, but it makes me cross that little old ladies have to part with a month's pension just to find out that the piece of paper may as well have been used to wipe their backside. :32:
 
There was a recent post on here placed by a guest. The guest asked why his taps (ceramic discs) just wouldn’t stop dripping. Some replied: change the cartridge and be done, but TAMZ replied: check your water pressure as it may be low and ceramics need more pressure to close properly. Experience at its best, which very few, if any, class only apprentices would have known about.

I've only done the 6035 Level 2, and I knew this - does this mean the course is OK after all, or am I just a genius, lol - !?
PS - Went to a house today where toilet draining away very slowly. Homeserve had jetted the drains (twice, a month apart), and informed the lady of the house she needed a plumber to unbox and dismantle the internal soil pipe "as it must be blocked somewhere". Subsequent plumber agreed and quoted her £850. Next plumber changed the flush valve (...?.)
I changed the AAV in the loft - job done. I wonder if the 4 previous plumbers did the 6035 or the 6189, ......hmmmm...interesting.....???[/QUOTE]

Oh to be young again !
AAV to me I always think of an automatic air vent !
Unless they say Durgo then I get it !!!!!! Duh time to have a nap I think ?
 
My college from a while ago stated no level 3 unless level 2 completed 1st.
They said as its modular it was imposible for city and guilds to issue cert for full 3 without full 2.
They said cg check on walled garden.
So although it may well be possible to sign up you cant complete the full qual until done in sequence.

you can do a l3 direct
 
:45:

Oh to be young again !
AAV to me I always think of an automatic air vent !
Unless they say Durgo then I get it !!!!!! Duh time to have a nap I think ?[/QUOTE]

I thought durgo was summat to do wiv karate?
 
I think Durgo were the first manufacturers of an air admittance valve back in the seventies and that is what everyone called them although now they are made by every plastic pipe fitting manufacturer .
 
:45:

Oh to be young again !
AAV to me I always think of an automatic air vent !
Unless they say Durgo then I get it !!!!!! Duh time to have a nap I think ?

I thought durgo was summat to do wiv karate?[/QUOTE]

Nah, A durgo's a drongo's apprentice.
 
My college from a while ago stated no level 3 unless level 2 completed 1st.
They said as its modular it was imposible for city and guilds to issue cert for full 3 without full 2.
They said cg check on walled garden.
So although it may well be possible to sign up you cant complete the full qual until done in sequence.

that was the case with the previous qual, not with the current, which is due to change again next year


https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-completes-next-stage-in-apprenticeship-reform
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Reply to Level 3 plumbing and gas courses... in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net

Creating content since 2001. Untold Media.

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Back
Top
AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks useful features of our website. For the best site experience please disable your AdBlocker.

I've Disabled AdBlock