Level 2 evening course College in Berkshire - 1 year.

[rocketmanbkk]

Just signed up for an evening course (2 per week) for 1 year at the local college. £900 all in with materials etc.

Level 2. I can then do the level 3 when passed. Then do the NVQ's after that for Level 2 & 3. It was explained the NVQ's should take a year each but depends on exactly how much work you can get through.

All sounds good. I am not in plumbing at present and 40 yo but do some smaller stuff to help people and fitted my own bathroom with seperate shower etc. so have a bit of experience with some jobs. Can bend a bit, solder a bit etc. but want to know exactly how to measure offsets, crossovers etc.

Looking forward to it.

I'll post back when get into it to let others know.

Good luck to everyone.

 

[rocketmanbkk]

Hi all,

Here is the update...

So, enrolled for the C&G 6128 in late August. Attended college at 6pm last Monday to announcements of whose doing the building services course, all was quiet!

Went up to the classroom and we were all sat down, 27 of us.

We were then hit with the statement that C&G has pulled the 6128/9 for everyone over 19 but offer Access to Building Studies which when we went through the course content is exactly the same with the added air con bit thrown in.

Discussions were had, no issues, progression routes were explained and to our astonishment after the completion of the level 2 course you can then enrol for the NVQ if you are working in the industry 3 or mare days per week but not at level 2 but at level 3.

I was a little aprehensive so called C&G and all was confirmed.

The course content is exactly as the 6128, 3 online exams. Number fo practical tasks also. Looking forward to it.

I have a few jobs already working around my main job but will start slowly to build up confidence and go from there.

I reckon that this time next year I'll be a millionaire (Rodney)!!

Good luck to all.

 

[fuzzy]

Hi all,

Here is the update...

So, enrolled for the C&G 6128 in late August. Attended college at 6pm last Monday to announcements of whose doing the building services course, all was quiet!

Went up to the classroom and we were all sat down, 27 of us.

We were then hit with the statement that C&G has pulled the 6128/9 for everyone over 19 but offer Access to Building Studies which when we went through the course content is exactly the same with the added air con bit thrown in.

Discussions were had, no issues, progression routes were explained and to our astonishment after the completion of the level 2 course you can then enrol for the NVQ if you are working in the industry 3 or mare days per week but not at level 2 but at level 3.

I was a little aprehensive so called C&G and all was confirmed.

The course content is exactly as the 6128, 3 online exams. Number fo practical tasks also. Looking forward to it.

I have a few jobs already working around my main job but will start slowly to build up confidence and go from there.

I reckon that this time next year I'll be a millionaire (Rodney)!!

Good luck to all.

course content not the same, i repea course content NOT THE SAME

go onto C&G site and see for yourself, or see threads i have posted on here about the course

good course dont get me wrong but not the same, it is a taster/stepping stone and nothing more

 

[rocketmanbkk]

Hi Fuzzy, have to disagree there, you do everything that the college taught on the 6128, do a little electrical, little air con but still do the requisite, bending, jointing, hot and cold water installs and decommisions, heating (rads), plus other bits.

The 6128 did this but no elec or air con etc.

Apparently, i say this loosely (!), the college think it could be a better course but stated that this course will provide all the basics as per teh 6128 Tech certificate.

I wa sjust looking through the course material, looking forward to it.

 

[rocketmanbkk]

just to add to avoid arguements! The college stated the way they will teach the new course will be deleivered the same as the 6128. It will cover all the same principles plus 1/2 more.

 

[fuzzy]

Im not guessing here, if you want to blindly think it is the same qual then go ahead. But i am telling you it is not the same course, does not teach the same things, how can a 1 year course in 4 subject areas be the same as a 2 year course in 1 subject area?

BS is elec, H&V, plumbing and refridge

it has 3 theory units. None of the theroy units relate to technical details of 4 said areas, they are basic H&S, enviro and science. it is underpinning knowledge only.

i know what i am on about i assure you, i am 100% correct

 

[rocketmanbkk]

what 2 year course are you talking about then, you've sort of lost me there?

The 6128/9 was a 1 year course and then a further year for he NVQ side of it at level 2.

This course for teh 1st year is teh underpinning knowledge which you mentioned then you can enrol, if you are working in the industry you choose on a number of L3 NVQ's which include Plumbing, H&V, as well as others.

The course that we are following on this new titled couurse is what the college taught for the 6128. That's fact. The Under 19's are doing that , us olds cannot!

 

[rocketmanbkk]

The FE College are offering the L2 Diploma.

The course material concentrates on the plumbing H&V side for the skills as this si what we originally signed up for.
To achieve the
[FONT=CongressSans,Bold][FONT=CongressSans,Bold]Level 2 Diploma in Access to Building Services Engineering[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=CongressSans,Bold][FONT=CongressSans,Bold][/FONT][/FONT], learners must
achieve
[FONT=CongressSans,Bold][FONT=CongressSans,Bold]45 [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=CongressSans,Bold][FONT=CongressSans,Bold][/FONT][/FONT]credits from the following mandatory units.
[FONT=CongressSans,Bold][FONT=CongressSans,Bold]Unit
accreditation
number
City and
Guilds unit
number
Unit title Credit
value
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=CongressSans,Bold][FONT=CongressSans,Bold][/FONT][/FONT]L/502/8175 105 Understand and demonstrate fundamental
refrigeration and air conditioning operations
5
J/502/8174 106 Understand and demonstrate fundamental electrical
installation operations
5
R/502/8176 107 Understand and demonstrate fundamental heating
and ventilating operations
5
Y/502/8177 108 Understand and demonstrate fundamental plumbing
operations
5
J/602/2479 201 Understand and carry out safe working practices in
Building Services Engineering
10
D/602/2486 202 Understand how to apply environmental protection
measures within Building Services Engineering
4
D/502/8181 203 Understand the roles, responsibilities and procedures
in Building Services Engineering
4
J/602/2496 204 Understand how to apply scientifi



Once learners have successfully completed this qualification they can progress onto any of the
following qualifications

•
2357 Level 3 Diploma in electro-technical technology
6187 Level 2 and 3 NVQ Certificate/Diploma in Refrigeration and air-conditioning
6188 Level 3 NVQ Certificate/Diploma in heating and ventilating
6189 Level 3 NVQ Diploma in Plumbing and heating installation

 

[fuzzy]

what 2 year course are you talking about then, you've sort of lost me there?

The 6128/9 was a 1 year course and then a further year for he NVQ side of it at level 2.

This course for teh 1st year is teh underpinning knowledge which you mentioned then you can enrol, if you are working in the industry you choose on a number of L3 NVQ's which include Plumbing, H&V, as well as others.

The course that we are following on this new titled couurse is what the college taught for the 6128. That's fact. The Under 19's are doing that , us olds cannot!

ok your centre did it in one year, all the ones i know delivered it in two years when on an evening

the underpinning knowledge of the BS trade, not the technical detail. The 6129&8 were and are technical detail of the core subject
If your suggesting your centre are running the 6128 but certificating the bs2000 then that is un ethical. you cannot deliver one course but pretend it is something else. id be interested to know who is doing this, pm me if you prefer. If that is fact as you suggest you are being misled. you will not achieve any qualification that suggests you have technical detailed knowledge of either of the 4 BS technologies
you do not have to do this course to enrol on an nvq, you can go straight to nvq
there is much much more in the nvq than the bs2000, the step up from 6128 to nvq was just on site side. the jump from bs2000 to nvq diploma is much much more, you will have several theory units to sit as well as the ones you have done

i know what i am on about, if you dont believe me fine, if you want the facts and honest truth then just ask i will not tell you what you want to hear but the facts, it is for you to then make your decision, but this is not the same content as the 6128 plus more, you are mistaken

 

[fuzzy]

The FE College are offering the L2 Diploma.

•
2357 Level 3 Diploma in electro-technical technology
6187 Level 2 and 3 NVQ Certificate/Diploma in Refrigeration and air-conditioning
6188 Level 3 NVQ Certificate/Diploma in heating and ventilating
6189 Level 3 NVQ Diploma in Plumbing and heating installation

this is correct, however, you can enrol on this without the 6128 or 9

you dont do any less wihen enrolling on a direct l3, its always been possible, the issue is you still have to do all the l2 units but dont get a level 2 qual, so there is no benefit
better to enrol on the l2 and get a cert, then enrol on l3

 

[rocketmanbkk]

Fuzzy, your commenst are appreciated. I am going to colleg tomorrow night and I think before it's too late we will al need to have another discussion about what we are doing exactly.

What was said last week in a nutshell is that the college cannot fund rteh 6128 fo rthe 27 over 19's on the evening course. They said that the can fund this course at the level 2 Diploma stage, 1 years course and that what we will learn is the under pinning knwledge needed for a new started etc.

The practical course material we have been given is for the 6128 which as you know goes through the pipe bending, jointing, hopt and cold water system, direct and indrect etc and so on.

I think my questions tomorrow will need to be answered to teh extent that I am satisfied that we will indeed do all fo teh practical that the 6128 involves (no lead work) and that on completion of this L2 Diploma, if working in the industry for at least 3 days per week, we will be able to enrol on one of the aforementioned NVQ's.

Is there anything you think I should be asking? Getting confirmed as at this stage we can still pull out with a full refund?

Thanks

 

[fuzzy]

Honesty is always the best policy, you need to ask them clear and precise questions and expect the same in return

Id ask:

1. What certificate do we get at the end and what does it mean? The answer should be something like, this is a stepping stone certificate, it gives you good underpinning knowledge, it is basic in its content, the certificate carries little weight, however we can build in some additional training on your chosen subject area but you will not receive any certification for this

2. which units will be left to do to complete the NVQ diploma after the BS2000 - from memory there are 11 or 12 in the plumbing nvq diploma, 3 are on site, 3 are done in the bs2000 so you should have about 6 more to do in college plus 3 on site ones.

3. can i do L3 direct. answer should be yes but you still need to do L2 units

my belief is this is a good course but everyone must realise it is basic and widespread, it is designed to be an overview. Do you know the history of the change in content? It came about because too many people did the tech certs only and then became self employed. they also went to employers and clients with a C&G L2/3 in plumbing. This was misleading as they didnt have the full qual which is the nvq. There was also some angry trainees, they paid and completed a good course and C&G (or EAL) only to find at the end that they could not get a trade card or jib card or similar because it was not the full qual.

So, to stop these issues they designed a BS2000. people can get trained and get some knowledge and skills and cannot claim to be a plumber or electrician etc as the course is called 'Access to BS'. It is meant to be titled so nobody is under the impression they have a complete trade qual.

I think it is good, i say go for it, it will be good expereince, but realise what it is

 

[rocketmanbkk]

much appreciated. I for one am under no illusion that I will be qualified to do much whatsoever until I gain experience of proper jobs which will only come in time and out of the classroom. Just one more from me if that's OK as I will ask what you suggest.

One the L2 Diploma in BS2000 is completed and if for example I then enrolled to do the6189 Level 3 NVQ Diploma in Plumbing and heating installation and completed this will this then qualify me as a plumbing and heating engineer?

Thanks for taking the time here to explain and assist.

 

[fuzzy]

yes the diploma nvq level 2 and 3 are both recognised plumbing qualifications. you need to be employed to complete them, this is the desirable route

if you have a job you can do the 6189 without bs2000

i would not recommend doing the l3 direct, if you drop out half way through you have nothing, do the level 2 first and get that qual, then go for l3, it is no longer

 

[rocketmanbkk]

Exactly what I was thinking, do L2 then 3.

Thanks again,

I'll update Tues after the course tomorrow.

Cheers

 

[fuzzy]

good luck, i hope it works out for you, im sure this will prove to be a very good course, just do it for the right reasons and know what you are getting. If you know all the facts and its for you then you will enjoy the course and so will the people with you.

I suspect they will be adding in 6128 training to add value to the course, this is fine but they need to let you know this is additional content they have added for value and is not part of the written scheme. If this is the case then you enter with all the facts

 

[fagsanbooz]

fuzzy is right on all counts!!!

 

[rocketmanbkk]

Just an update...

Attended collge yesterday evening. We had a discussion to make sure all isd as expected.

The outcome was we were told about the 4 C&G online exams we have to take. We will cover a unit then complete the online exam an dget result there an dthen, if failed options explaiend. All OK.

There are also 4 assessments that the tutors will carry out which are paper based and will eb face to face questioning. Again after each module is complete will be be given the assessment and results. All OK.

We went down to meet the practical tutor, who seems a very nice chap, he's not interested in college ettiquette etc!!! and just wants to teach us plumbing! Basically, he'll cover all the stuff on the 6128, bending, joining, hot an cold water, rads etc. and also get us into taps and other useful stuff we will be able to use in day to day plumbing. He'll do the assessments for C&G on the practical side. We were all happy.

We also had the progression route explained and if employed can enrol to do the 6189 NVQ L2 and so on. It's what I want so looking forward to it.

Thanks to Fuzzy with comments.

BTW, you know the monument pipe slice (red and yellow that opens up) are they any good? Been offered 15 & 22 mm brand new in packaging for £12 for the pair,. Any thoughts?

Thanks again.

 

[fuzzy]

Just an update...

Attended collge yesterday evening. We had a discussion to make sure all isd as expected.

The outcome was we were told about the 4 C&G online exams we have to take. We will cover a unit then complete the online exam an dget result there an dthen, if failed options explaiend. All OK.

There are also 4 assessments that the tutors will carry out which are paper based and will eb face to face questioning. Again after each module is complete will be be given the assessment and results. All OK.

We went down to meet the practical tutor, who seems a very nice chap, he's not interested in college ettiquette etc!!! and just wants to teach us plumbing! Basically, he'll cover all the stuff on the 6128, bending, joining, hot an cold water, rads etc. and also get us into taps and other useful stuff we will be able to use in day to day plumbing. He'll do the assessments for C&G on the practical side. We were all happy.

We also had the progression route explained and if employed can enrol to do the 6189 NVQ L2 and so on. It's what I want so looking forward to it.

Thanks to Fuzzy with comments.

BTW, you know the monument pipe slice (red and yellow that opens up) are they any good? Been offered 15 & 22 mm brand new in packaging for £12 for the pair,. Any thoughts?

Thanks again.

well i hope it works out for you. Im happeier you are making the correct decision if you are fully informed. Remeber thought it is only an access course and you will not be fully qualified on completion. It is not a pre requisite for 6189. The 6189 will be on site + theory units after access course. The 6128 was not plumbing but H&V, the 6129 is plumbing.

good luck

 

[rocketmanbkk]

Attended the 1st theory last night, getting into it! One disappointment is the lack of tools teh college have, 18 on teh course and 2 hacksaws and 2 heat guns - very poor we all thought. Going to take my own next week as can then get more done.

 

[fuzzy]

let us know how it goes

 

[rocketmanbkk]

Will do, cheers Fuzzy.

 

[rocketmanbkk]

Update, enjoying course, theory stuff pretty basic but OK. Practical, disappointed that the college don't have too many tools, e.g. need to share a hand file with 6, gas torch with 10, not good enough. A questionm the X dimension business, it's like trying to unravel the problems of the universe!!!! Anyone have a simple solution they can put as an example on here please?

Other than that getting back into the swing, good mixed bunch.

Cheers all.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

x dimension is the depth of the fitting that the pipe goes into i.e. from the end to where the pipe stops in the fitting

 

[rocketmanbkk]

Thx, I have done some homework!!

The X dimension is the measurement from for example, the center of a 15mm equal 'T' to the end of the socket where the pipe would enter less the measurement of how far the pipe goes into the fitting. Easy when you have worked out a few but confusing the first time you hear it!

It's something I'll never forget!

Thanks all.

 

[fuzzy]

always measure centres with pipe, its the only constant

you then need to know what to knock off to transfer a c/c measurement to e/e, end to end and therefore the pipe length

 

[rocketmanbkk]

Quick update...

Course going OK, Monday night theory night turning into bit of a bore. Tutor just seems to pack us off to the library for an hour, then a break and then go though what we just researched with a varierty of answers, such as, how many different sizes of air con pipes are there? My answer 17, his answer 7 but may be 17!!! Not too impreseed an dneither are others, wer'e going to have a word next week although we hav ethe 1st of 4 assessments, pretty basic as expected, H&S, identify 10 plumbing hand tools, identify air con fittings, identify 4 tools with faults and state whether can use or not an dhow if possible to rectify, identify 3 hazards in workshop, suggest solutions an dmake a frame with air con pipe. Pretty simple.

Tuesday practical night very good, plenty more tools etc. Salty pld plumber excellent, getting on well, enjoy it.

As long as Mondays get sorted it'll be OK, few people want to leave due to crap Mondays, I am sure when we 'have a word' all will be sorted as we want to be taught, provided info not research what may well be incorrect info as it seems a complete cop out that as soon as we arrive wer'e told, go to library for an hour and research this or that!

Cheers all.

 

[Deleted member 25704]

Sounds to me like teacher is doing a reasonable job. Its interesting that people expect to be taught. We make assumptions that teaching leads to learning, and we are conditioned into sitting and receiving information like we did at school - this process is not a good way of constructing knowledge, because it relies purely on memory - and we find difficulty in remembering things that are not meaningful, or those things that we have not experienced yet.

The teacher is giving you some responsibility to discover your own knowledge and become familiar with research techniques. Have you chatted to the librarian for help in researching British Standards and other documents that might be available from the college library? In terms of learning this way, many students that were not used to doing homework, find this process difficult - because they would rather someone else did it for them (teacher), but this does not provide the same sort of knowledge.

Once you learn how to learn, the teacher becomes less important for the transmission of information, and you start to develop your own ways of collecting, reading, understanding and questioning the knowledge and the teacher. These skills will take you to highest level in education, whereas sitting as an empty vessel waiting to be filled up with information is not very productive.

My suggestion would be to ask the teacher if there is any way of connecting the practical in the workshop, with the theory in the classroom - to make it more relevant and interesting. It sounds like the qualification is laced with meaningless facts, which need to be explained through practical activities, or meaningful discussion in the classroom.

Glad your enjoying your practical sessions - you may want to extend your learning to finding out about professional bodies associated with the sector, and the junior memberships that they have (which include professional journals). Do some research on free manufacturers training - call honeywell, cylinder companies, tap companies and showers. I would also start to become familiar with British Standards - such as BS 6700, which underpins hot and cold water installations. You could also check out how much further learning you could do online - u-tube videos on gas burners, boiler installations, and solar - its all out there waiting to be learned and you don't have to wait to attend college to do it.

 

[rocketmanbkk]

all agreed, doing some research alone is a good thing but as you sau iy then meeds to be backed up in the classroom to corroborate the correct answers and discuss what the subject was actually about.

More updates soon.

 

[fuzzy]

i think good teaching forces the student to apply themselves, but in this case it sounds more like a cop out. as with all things in life a healthy balance is best

 

[rocketmanbkk]

Fuzzy
Agreed.

I have written a proposal for him as to what us students want to learn about other than when he teaches as in the initial 2 weeks after his core teaching we spent 45 odd minutes going through 'plumbing' ferrels, how water gets to a dwelling, stop valves etc. etc. Which is what we want to know.

Update again soon.

Cheers

 

[Deleted member 25704]

Fuzzy
Agreed.

I have written a proposal for him as to what us students want to learn about other than when he teaches as in the initial 2 weeks after his core teaching we spent 45 odd minutes going through 'plumbing' ferrels, how water gets to a dwelling, stop valves etc. etc. Which is what we want to know.

Update again soon.

Cheers

Its an interesting situation this, how students think they know what they should be learning, without ever having experienced a real plumbing event in a sustained way. I know a lot about ferrules, but I have never fitted one, and have only seen them when the water board dig up the road - its not relevant to what we need to know to be plumbers - this knowledge is information and will rarely be applied! I would argue the sector skills councils don't know what plumbers need to know either - they think they do by listing national occupational standards (NOS) but these do not contain the 'silent' process knowledge that is required to perform competently - this is skilled behaviour and is difficult to learn through the college process.

Teaching as 'forcing' someone to act...does not bode well for teacher/student relations, but I do know what fuzzy means, because many of the younger students are not self motivated. However adult students often carry with them the ability to be self-motivated. I believe the teacher knows this and allows his students some agency (freedom) to research, gather questions and discuss in the lesson. However, Rocketmann is not happy with the co-ordination of these learning events in the library, which is a valid critique.

Rocketmann, if the teacher reverts to what is expected, which is chalk and talk, you will be bored ****less and be learning the content of the test, which is easy. Perhaps 'tentatively' talk to the teacher and ask if there can be some formal structure to the research, and a structured discussion afterwards (perhaps ask about the 'relevance' of what it is you are expected to research - does it relate to the practical/theory exam/or plumbing in the field). You might think you are faced with a lazy teacher, however he could be a progressive educator, who gives his students the freedom to act, research, make meaning and question. On the other hand, didactic teaching (transmission of information through language) is not considered as an effective way of helping people to develop knowledge, but instead helps students to 'memorise' facts (not concepts) to be recalled for the exam (teaching to test).

I look forward to the updates and thank Rocketman for allowing us to discuss some educational matters.

 

[rocketmanbkk]

Clanger

I do agree as an adult learner that soem research is a good thing but when it is totally unliked and then not further discussed as to what the outcome as I find it a complete waste of time!

Just as a quick example, we arrived at 6pm last monday and as soon as we arrived were told to copy down 5 questions on air con from the board and research teh answers in teh library online, not a problem with that although th equestions on air con have some out fo teh blue as we have not learned anything about air con thus far so it was a shock and confusing as to where we were going. After the reaearch for an hour, boring as it was we were then told to take a 30 min break, back at 730pm. We then went through the questions where our answers were told and the tutors comments as per an earlier post were 'i got the answer 7 but it could be like you say 17!' now, none of us know the correct answer! At 8pm we were told to go home, we are meant to be there until at least 830pm. As also mention the first few weeks we went through bits with the tutor, did some online research, went through some quizes etc an dthen at the end at about 8pm he started to go through some plumbing scenarios, as mentioned,m brilliant, we aere all interested, questions were asked and more to it explained!

It's what we need to get back to an dthis Monday iot will be raised as to this is what we want, we are paying for a course and if the tutor wants top go home early we'll ask for another!

He's a good chap but it seems to have gone to pot. I can research at home if there is to be no meaningful discussion after with corect answers given.

Assessments are to be done this Monday, pretty basic H & S thigs so we'll be busy. After that we'll be starting a new module so we'll see what happens but as you say the silent knowledge could be discussed i.e what is this happened to a tap, how would you maybe fix this, what is tis etc. etc.

Cheers for all replies.

 

[fuzzy]

i hear you rocketman, the course seems to lack structure. remember though, its not a diy plumbing course, content is pre set and out of tutors control, i hear lots of trainees say things like, it never taught me to fit a shower etc, but thats not part of the course, anything like that may be added in for value but they are within their rights not to cover it

 

[rocketmanbkk]

Agreed Fuzzy. The course is good, what we want to do so we're motivated to get as much as we can out!

Little bit here and there will be a bonus.