Lead welding

[ste b]

Started this this week,any information appreciated,i know one thing its not easy lol

 

[Phil]

I used to do electrical soldering a while back so I took to it very well, a lot of the welding torches get dropped on the floor by clumsey meatheads which damages the nozzel, learn how to get the right size flame or it wont weld properly

Clean the lead before hand, make plenty of rods and keep them to yourself or they'll be gone!

 

[NickH]

You MUST get the flame right, enough to get a molten pool but not melt straight through the sheet, also dont panic and remove the flame all the time, you need to be confident enough to keep the momentum going. Its much easier working on a piece thats sitting flat on the bench so whenever possible position your piece so that its flat on the bench/board. Momentum is the key, get your molten pool and then keep it moving along adding dabs into the pool as you go, DONT stop, you'll burn through or lose the edge of your sheet, once you get it moving you'll be surprised how quickly you can zip across a piece. Theres not much thats more satisfying than running a really neat lead weld with nice even ripples.

 

[plumbski]

I remember doing it at day release college during my apprentiship days, must have put a hole in about 20 sheets of lead before i got it right, we had to make a lead slate for a stack vent.

It's all about getting the flame right, working distance, and hand eye coordination.

Did one stack in 33 years of plumbing after serving a 5 year apprentiship.
Waste of time if you ask me, particularly nowadays.

Most so called plumbers now could'nt wipe a joint if you asked them.

 

[BrianL]

Still a craft

I teach at an FE college, and teach lead bossing and welding. Its one of the most difficult techniques to master, don't be too disapointed if you don't get it straight away as i see it its on of the only crafts left in Plumbing,

Preperation is the key 15 mins to set up and prep 2 mins to do the weld.

1. Make sure your work are is clean and tidy and your base is free from stones or grit etc.

2. Clean/shave your lead only 5mm or so each side (keep it straight and uniform, remember the molten lead will keep to the shaved area and look uniform is shaved straight)

3. Clean and shave enough welding rods to complete the task keep then all the same width, again for uniformity.

4. Set the gas pressures on the regulators 0.14-0.2 bar on each is enough.

5. Using a model O torch with a number 2 nozzle, set the flame to
neutral Oxyacetylene.

6. Using a scrap peice of lead hold the flame around 20-15mm away from the lead the lead should form a molten pool in around 2-3 seconds any quicker the flame is too hot (adjust regulator) any longer again adjust regulator to suit. PREP DONE.

7. Tack Each end of your weld to hold it all in place then off you go remebering to keep it steady and uniform.

8. The finished peice should have full penetration and be reinforced, that means your weld should go all the way through the thickness of the lead and the finished weld should have a raised feel to it when you run your finget over it, if the finished weld hasn't got a raised feel to it it is then undercut and weak.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Brian

 

[ste b]

Thanks for all these replys, really appreciated, i confident i will get this one, i have done a bit of welding in the past so at least thats a start hey, does anyone know where i can buy a lead welder, dont want to spend a load of cash on one i just want one that will do the job, and i have been told it will be hard to get the gas, is that true?.......

 

[ste b]

I will try again lets suppose i was to get a job roof flashing and this art of lead welding was to used,where would i get a lead welder and the welding rods and also the gas,struggling to find out what equipment is to be used and where to find it,i was told you could buy rolls of lead but as with the dangers with lead i still not come accross any anywhere........please correct me if theses welders are not called lead welders,there probably another name for them, cheers hope the new year going well for peeps............

 

[Mike Jackson]

[DLMURL="http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.co.uk%2FRothenberger-Micro-Fire-Lead-Fine-Flame-Blow-Torch_W0QQitemZ190258617034QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_DIY_Materials_Plumbing_MJ%3Fhash%3Ditem190258617034%26_trksid%3Dp3286.c0.m14%26_trkparms%3D72%253A1301%7C66%253A2%7C65%253A12%7C39%253A1%7C240%253A1318"]Rothenberger Micro Fire Lead Fine Flame Blow Torch on eBay, also, Plumbing Tools, Industrial Tools, Business, Office Industrial (end time 08-Feb-09 08:25:26 GMT)[/DLMURL]

 

[NickH]

You'll get rolls of lead from most roofing or builders merchants and the welding "rods" are simply strips cut from the lead sheet, usually offcuts and end of rolls.

 

[BrianL]

Don't buy that micro thing on ebay waste of time and money. You need a Model O saphire welding torch with a couple of size 2 nozzels.

Lead isnt dangerouse unless you eat it regularly

 

[ste b]

Cheers nick and brian for the info,

steve.

 

[stevetheplumber]

I remember doing it at day release college during my apprentiship days, must have put a hole in about 20 sheets of lead before i got it right, we had to make a lead slate for a stack vent.

It's all about getting the flame right, working distance, and hand eye coordination.

Did one stack in 33 years of plumbing after serving a 5 year apprentiship.
Waste of time if you ask me, particularly nowadays.

Most so called plumbers now could'nt wipe a joint if you asked them.

nice to know theres someone as old as me on here like you i did my day release and had to produce roofing in lead copper ally and neuraliteand to this day i dont think ive used any of them except the odd piece of lead

my tutor at tottenham tech was George Blower who wrote the plumbing book that was used by most coledges at the time
Plumbing has been de skilled over the years as have most trades,you dont need much traning to pushfit pipes

my first day as an apprentice i watched the plumber wipe in a 4 inch lead bend on a soil stack he said to me watch this carefully as you'll never see it again and he was right

 

[justlead1]

Hi Steb. There is aerosol type plant that can be purchased for £100-00 it will allow the welding of lead sheet on the bench and flat. However being a plumber who has specialised in sheet lead work and welding, i find them to be limited, as has been suggested Ox/acet, gauges, hoses and model "O" torch are far superior, allowing all aspects welding skills to be mastered. The cost of such would be approx £300-00 plus bottle hire. If you wish to view welded sheet lead products and video on the flashing of chimneys visit http://justlead.co.uk I am in the process of producting DVD/Video on the subject of lead welding, this will be avaliable soon and may well be of intrest. Good Luck

 

[John Flower]

nice to know theres someone as old as me on here like you i did my day release and had to produce roofing in lead copper ally and neuraliteand to this day i dont think ive used any of them except the odd piece of lead

my tutor at tottenham tech was George Blower who wrote the plumbing book that was used by most coledges at the time
Plumbing has been de skilled over the years as have most trades,you dont need much traning to pushfit pipes

my first day as an apprentice i watched the plumber wipe in a 4 inch lead bend on a soil stack he said to me watch this carefully as you'll never see it again and he was right

Nice to know that i am not the oldest on here, i did the same day and block release at the Vauxhall College of Building and FE ,i was also taught lead ,copper ,aluminium ,zinc and nuralite sheet roofwork way back in 1984. We were apparently the last year to be taught how to wipe lead joints (burlock fixing tools,remember them) and also to caulk a joint on cast iron soil pipe. We were shown how to solder zinc sheet together using "killed hydrochloric acid" also known as Bakers fluid to clean the zinc and to heat the joint using soldering irons. Plus my favourite was lead bossing and making sand loaded bends in black iron pipe. The plumbing syllabus has had all the art and craft knocked out of it.

 

[david williams]

Re: Still a craft

I teach at an FE college, and teach lead bossing and welding. Its one of the most difficult techniques to master, don't be too disapointed if you don't get it straight away as i see it its on of the only crafts left in Plumbing,

Preperation is the key 15 mins to set up and prep 2 mins to do the weld.

1. Make sure your work are is clean and tidy and your base is free from stones or grit etc.

2. Clean/shave your lead only 5mm or so each side (keep it straight and uniform, remember the molten lead will keep to the shaved area and look uniform is shaved straight)

3. Clean and shave enough welding rods to complete the task keep then all the same width, again for uniformity.

4. Set the gas pressures on the regulators 0.14-0.2 bar on each is enough.

5. Using a model O torch with a number 2 nozzle, set the flame to
neutral Oxyacetylene.

6. Using a scrap peice of lead hold the flame around 20-15mm away from the lead the lead should form a molten pool in around 2-3 seconds any quicker the flame is too hot (adjust regulator) any longer again adjust regulator to suit. PREP DONE.

7. Tack Each end of your weld to hold it all in place then off you go remebering to keep it steady and uniform.

8. The finished peice should have full penetration and be reinforced, that means your weld should go all the way through the thickness of the lead and the finished weld should have a raised feel to it when you run your finget over it, if the finished weld hasn't got a raised feel to it it is then undercut and weak.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Brian

still teaching proper lead work great

 

[ken quinton]

Lead welding/burning is easy just get a cheap kit. sit down somewhere quiet. and practice
for about 20 years.
Ive been working with lead as a roofer for 39 years now
and can still get it wrong at times.
Some welds can be very hard and take all the skills you have acquired.
But some welding can be easy IF you are shown some basic techniques.
(try searching for some video clips)
Its no good asking lead workers as they see it as a big secret
never to be shown to eanyone.
Get some thick lead code 5 or 6. An Oxy-turbo burning kit from a
roofers merchant. and practice till you stop throwing things at the wall.
Lead work and sheet leadwork are roofing trades.
but used to be plumbing trades as in:
Plumbum latin word for lead as in lead pipe.
Element symbol Pb PlumBum.
Dirived into English as Plumbing, Plumber and Plumb-bob.
Hope this helps.

 

[justlead1]

Hi. To get insight try Just Lead - Sheet Lead Products under news/video you will find a short video showing a bit of lead burning. Good Luck

 

[david williams]

last 4 inch lead wipe two years ago on a listed building in kent great fun i loved it

 

[Bernie2]

Orrible job! Done even 2 meter wide lead slate, for industrial chimney. And all the usual stuff. Mostly though, we gave it the apprentices to do.

Watch the fumes and don't use too fast or to slow a neutralizing flame it can give off lead fumes.

Which are said to make you mad after about 40 years.

Oh! Aye! Don't forget your bottle of free milk as well! Okay its for galvo but its still nice if you can get it for lead.

All that bossing and bending may not be so bad if the companies give you the time to do it in.

 

[Plouasne]

Bernie,

I did a lead slate for a 28" chimney once, not quite as wide as yours, but wide enough, the cheeky dosser of a fitter moaned and dripped for days afterwards, because I had not cut the base of the slate to correspond to the corrugations of the asbestos sheeting, he did not give me the position of the flue, in relation to the roofing sheet

 

[migoplumber]

lead and asbestos in the same sentence somes it up for me.

im afraid i'm one of the plumbers who has never done sheet lead work, it looks pretty on roof's but in plumbing i just like to rip it out wherever its found.

just me being biased on the theme again, and i do admire the skill involved, i just cant see the future in it, especially teaching it in colleges!

shaun

 

[Plouasne]

I have found that if you have the knowledge to work on lead pipe to open it up for a branch, or work a knuckle bend, you have more than enough knowledge to apply the same methods and techniques to copper tube

The same applies to lead sheet, to a certain extent when working different metals for roof work, be it copper, zinc or aluminium, if you know how to set out and develop, the weathering upstand for a pipe passing through a roof to make the opening watertight, the principles are just the same whatever the metal used

If you cannot do these simple things you cannot be called a plumber, just a pipe fitter

 

[migoplumber]

i can see what your saying plousane, just for me i'd call a pro roofer in to sort that out, my plumbing problems are complicated enough without having to worry about the how the lead welding looks under the soil pipe. im not a glazier either.!!

just a plumber, making my life as simple as possible

shaun

 

[Bernie2]

Yes Plouasne mine was on a brewery boiler stack, if I remember right it was a corrugated asbestos roof as well.

I must admit, although I don't like lead work, but having been an employed Plumber you don't get to pick and choose your jobs very often, so if your given a lead job you have to get on with it, its what you get paid for. And professionalism means you have to make as good a job as your skills allow. Being fair, there isn't really a substitute yet for its shape adaptability.

The likes of Nuralite look terrible after a few years. And copper is hardly ever used.

Its more green mineral felt for large roofs instead of bays and rolls though.

I think people may think lead is going out of use, but a trip down any UK building site still shows plenty of lead flashings and bays are still going up. The green lobby have a point though on its damage to the environment, which makes me think that the minute anything does come along it will be replaced pretty quick

 

[justlead1]

Plouasne i thought you would be the first to remind every body that "plumber" from the Latin and French means worker of lead. I would support the comments on regarding knowledge craft and skill associated with forge bendin, sand loading, joint wiping, bossing etc. 40 years after practising sand loading black iron for bending, i adapted the principal on 110 mm plastic soil (using warm sand) to over come a problem. Our skill evolve not much is brand new.

 

[Plouasne]

Just lead

I agree with you its the use of your head and the adoption of what you have been taught when using the old materials, to do the same with new materials, but if the youngsters have not been taught how to work with the old materials how are they going to know what to do when it comes to something slightly out of the normal run of work

Bernie,

Have a look at this link below sorry mate, its all in French, but click on to Fiches Techniques, and see how the French plombiers do lead work, most is just about the same as a UK plumber would do the work and some is completely different, and not much "cop" in my opinion, but to get to the "Greens" the producers of the lead sheet are claiming Green credentials, because the lead can be re-cycled back into lead again, also the Zinc over here has both a certain amount of copper (WHAT copper and ZINC do not mix) and Titanium in the Zinc, and it lasts, also its almost as soft as lead to fold, rather like the four nines super purity aluminium sheet, that was used in the UK [ I made some dormer cheeks out of the 4 9's stuff, and polished it, did it shine, when the sun hit it, almost blinding]

The link might be of interest to Just Lead as well

Le Plomb Francais Filiale du Groupe Eco-Bat Technologies PLC, 1er producteur mondial de plomb - Accueil

Also click on to Produits, and look at Plomb coule a sable (sand cast lead), and Plomb S M H Special Momument Historique, (special lead for historic buildings) there they show a photo of an historic building re-roofed with 150 tonnes of this lead, the roof was done in 2004

The company will do "stages" training for learning how to work with lead

 

[justlead1]

Thanks for the post. i have in fact worked for the Information De plomb. I was asked to do a Tour De France demonstrating welding skills at collages and companions in the N,S,E and West of France. and i must say it was one of the most enjoyable and intresting times of my life.

 

[Plouasne]

Thanks for the post. i have in fact worked for the Information De plomb. I was asked to do a Tour De France demonstrating welding skills at collages and companions in the N,S,E and West of France. and i must say it was one of the most enjoyable and intresting times of my life.

I bet that you were well looked after, by the Companions ( a brief description of a Companion de France for the people who do not know what a Companion is, like the old journeyman trades person, who did a tour of France learning even more of their trade after an apprenticeship, before settling down in one place) with plenty of wine as well, did you know that the top apprentice plumber of France, a couple of years ago was not French born but UK born, who went to France as a child, it put a slight crimp in Jacques tail when he was introduced to the then President of France

 

[ken quinton]

Hi again.
Couple more interesting facts about lead.
Sheet lead was first used by the Normans.
Lead tiles go back 2,000 years and were used by the romans.
lead was first used 7,000 years ago to contain water ( plumbing)
and to prevent water penetration ( roofing)
Just goes to show the cross over between the two trades (lead sheet and
lead pipe) goes back a long way

 

[justlead1]

Hi Ken to add to you facts. It has been thought that the fall of the Roman empire may have been brought about by the fact that the Roman wine maker discovered that lead carbonate (The white powder that forms on the surface) was sweet. They collected with a Roman dust pan and brush and used to fortify their wine. The wine was only available to the ruling classes, who over a relatively short period of time lost the plot and the society collapsed. I bet there are a few plumber on here that have been through the same trip. Not to mention our politicians. Good Luck

 

[Avatar]

Throw away your lead working kit - no plumbers do sheet lead now anyway (apart from those 100 year old ones!!!)

Waste of time . . .

 

[david williams]

real plumbers can still do lead work and make a good living out of it ,i can i do and i can do all the new stuff like ,heat pumps ,solar,the use of plastic plumbing etc and i clip all my plastic plumbing properly but then i am a dinasour.not quite a 100 but still able to outwork and out think most young plumbers .do you know avatar if you carry on so stresed you will not live long anougth to be an old plumber all you posts are full of vitriol for older plumbers why???

 

[Plouasne]

real plumbers can still do lead work and make a good living out of it ,i can i do and i can do all the new stuff like ,heat pumps ,solar,the use of plastic plumbing etc and i clip all my plastic plumbing properly but then i am a dinasour.not quite a 100 but still able to outwork and out think most young plumbers .do you know avatar if you carry on so stresed you will not live long anougth to be an old plumber all you posts are full of vitriol for older plumbers why???

Dave,

Could the reason be for the diatribe that some of the posters are coming out with, is that they cannot do lead work in the first place

 

[david williams]

it is a shame realy but most of the new breed of plumbers cant do lead work,they may think its old hat but lead roofing is makeing a comeback because of its durability.its allways nice to have other areas of expertice to help you stay in work.but i feel avatar has had a bad experience with an older plumber somewhere.or is it that he feels anyone who qualified before him is just not up to it,but then he seems to know best what is rite for all of us ,perhaps he used to be a social worker

 

[Bernie2]

Hi! Plouasne,

Had a look at the site and it seems good.

The UK one is "The Lead Sheet Association" and the "copperboard" for copper roofing. They have both got interesting information on.

You know the new guys seem rather constricted in the work they can take on, it must be hard for them to make a living only doing bits and pieces.

I don't think anybody quite knows the extent of a Plumbers work. I've been required when installing urinal slabs, to work in toilets without tiles and no set levels, requiring me to set the levels which would eventually correspond with the tile patterns.

I don't suppose it occurs to most people that a Plumber has to know about tiling.

Moving on from there, what about roof constructions? How about having to work out the slate or tile cuts and then cut and fit them, when repairing or replacing lead or other valleys?

The whole area of Plumbing covers all kinds, in point you have virtually got to know how to construct a building from top to bottom. Lead D.P.C are not thrown in they have to be placed in according to the brickwork.

How about electronics and electric?

How about floor construction.

Then the art of making good your work.

How about glazing?

I suppose you could fill a book with what a Plumber is supposed to know about things people don't usually think of as Plumbing?