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...By pulling out the fire 26.9 comes into play, so yes by the time the engineer has finished he's done everything but service the fire.
I think you clearly don't understand a word that is written in those regs.
 
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I'm always up for learning something new. Care to point out where I've gone wrong?
 
It is flawed logic
If a tenant installs his own fire himself, it is his appliance and therefore not your responsibility; your engineer should keep his hands off it, and it does not need to be part of the cp12 either.
 
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Perhaps we may have to agree to disagree. But so you know where I'm coming from ...

We supply a flue to which a tenant connects a their own gas fire. Fine, they own the fire, but we own the flue and have a duty under the HSAW Act to ensure that any flue we provide for a tenant's use is safe.

With the exception of tenant own gas fires, we don't touch their gas appliances (cookers, portable space heaters) unless there's an AR or ID situation. Tenant own appliances do get listed on the LGSR and they get a visual inspection.

May I ask why you don't feel that tenant own appliances should be listed on a LGSR? If it didn't need to be a part of the record, then why would there be a box the record there asking whether it's a landlord's appliance?
 
They should not be on the cp12 because:

Legislation does not require it.
It is non of your business.
It is pointless.
The money wasted on those labour costs should be spent on things that DO need work. I sincerely doubt that so much as half of your stock complies with today's level standards.
 
They should not be on the cp12 because:

Legislation does not require it.
It is non of your business.
It is pointless.
The money wasted on those labour costs should be spent on things that DO need work. I sincerely doubt that so much as half of your stock complies with today's level standards.

its his flue but not his fire - he needs to check flue so he has to remove the fire to carry out the checks on the flue... i dont see how he can get around this ?

i always write down gas appliances on the cp12 but i just check the box for the landlords appliances he wants checking... if there is a dangerous looking appliance from a visual point of view in a landlords property he has the right to know, it is his business, and i wouldnt think its pointless informing him as its endangering his property if nothing else.

Landlord checks are such a grey area for a lot of people.
 
They should not be on the cp12 because:

Legislation does not require it.

Ever looked at HSAW Act with regards to risk assessments?

It is non of your business.
Gas appliances in our properties are very much our business, particularly if they are connected to our flues! We don't allow LPG in our properties either.

Are you suggesting that it's none of our business that there is a tenant own cooker in HMO with incorrect clearances and showing signs of scorching?

It is pointless.
Really? It gives me a snapshot of the gas installation on the day the engineer was there -- the whole installation. Not to mention, by failing to positively record all appliances, an engineer may leave himself open. You think some clever barrister wouldn't have a field day with a missing cooker with drop down lid after a gas leak and incident? Might very well call a tightness test into question. "You've missed appliances, what else have you missed?"

The money wasted on those labour costs should be spent on things that DO need work. I sincerely doubt that so much as half of your stock complies with today's level standards.
The service engineers don't correct the majority of NCS. That's done on a programme of upgrades, at a new boiler installation or by the repairs team.
 
my tuppence worth on this, (if it is worth that much haha) you list ALL appliances on the CP1, this ensures that the checks and visual inspection carried out was on THAT EXACT cooker, what i mean by that is, you do all the usual stuff visual TT etc, the cooker is OK, but you dont list the cooker make and model, their favourite brother in law is getting a brand new gas cooker and donates his old one to the job we are talking about, there is a gas leak due to numpty head fitting it badly, EVERYONE AND THEIR DOG end up in the house discussing how many bits we are going to cut the gas engineers bits up into as he is incompetant, if this was you how would you PROVE the cooker had been changed, would the tenant admit the changeover? eh no, so what i do is list make and model, do TT all OK, gas leak gets reported we all inspect "new" cooker doesn't match my cert , bye bye i'm off the hook,

CMairiD you might like this one, I used to make the engineers list the make and model of ELECTRIC cookers on the CP1 (after discussion with the landlords) took 3-4 seconds, and we were in behing it checking the position/security of the bayonet, or recording the pipe has been blanked, housing are now aware there is electric cooker in prop, next year we go back and lo and behold there is now a gas cooker, has the tenant got written permission to fit a gas cooker, do they have receipt from GSR firm, prob no, so when you log second cert, i KNOW you cross ref info with last years you will notice the changed cooker and pull the tenant up, (what do you mean you dont have time to cross ref the info when you put the new cert away, how else do you note that last years 1mb drop is now 2mb drop and you should consider locating fixing as it is getting worse)
 
That is just total nonsense, you clearly don't understand a word that is written in those regs.

Bengasman, what type of work are you doing? you need to have a wee read at the notes printed inside the cover of the CP1 book ( i swear to God i had been doing services for years before i notice the guidence notes inside the front cover:eek:) on what/how to fill the cert in, and also a wee look at the gas regs/requirements for what you are doing
 
I have looked at all that is relevant for my line of work, including risk assessment, which is a main part of ACS. Something you have clearly not under your belt.
Now you come up with a cooker that is not yours, and signs of scorching; a far cry away from the subject of removing a fire that belongs to a tenant to inspect the chimney.
 
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Bengasman, what type of work are you doing? you need to have a wee read at the notes printed inside the cover of the CP1 book ( i swear to God i had been doing services for years before i notice the guidence notes inside the front cover:eek:) on what/how to fill the cert in, and also a wee look at the gas regs/requirements for what you are doing
I do my best to limit my work to central heating repairs for home owners. I'll do other things for good clients, and as little as possible for landlords. I only work for landlords if I know them already, or if they are referred to me by people I know and trust.
I have one generic gas cert bloc that is at least 4 years old, and did not come with any guidance notes.
 
Kirk, we had our CP12s customised to include the words boiler, fire, and cooker pre-printed in the appliance box. So now the engineers write ELEC next to the relevant appliance and scratch through the rest. Similar to what you were doing.

Ben, we supply a boiler which by law we are obliged to check. It is no different than a flue we supply, regardless of whether it's connected to our fire or a tenant's. We have a duty of care ensure the things we provide are safe; the law says we are obliged to check it.

It's not unknown to see forums full of engineers complaining about cheapskate landlords putting tenant's safety at risk. This, however, is the first time I've seen one complain we do too much and it's none of our business.

I suggest we agree to disagree, particularly as you have a penchant for peppering your debates with insults. And for the record, I don't just sit behind a desk all day and it is incorrect to assume I am 'without any relevant real life experience'.
 
Kirk, we had our CP12s customised to include the words boiler, fire, and cooker pre-printed in the appliance box. So now the engineers write ELEC next to the relevant appliance and scratch through the rest. Similar to what you were doing.

Ben, we supply a boiler which by law we are obliged to check. It is no different than a flue we supply, regardless of whether it's connected to our fire or a tenant's. We have a duty of care ensure the things we provide are safe; the law says we are obliged to check it.

It's not unknown to see forums full of engineers complaining about cheapskate landlords putting tenant's safety at risk. This, however, is the first time I've seen one complain we do too much and it's none of our business.

I suggest we agree to disagree, particularly as you have a penchant for peppering your debates with insults. And for the record, I don't just sit behind a desk all day and it is incorrect to assume I am 'without any relevant real life experience'.

good reply - good idea of the pre printed cp12's to suit your particular needs
 
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Please be advised this thread is being closely monitored

Again I would request all posts are kept on topic and refer to new opinions or comment on previous post content and not on the poster ie

NO PERSONAL REMARKS OR DIGS ,there is no need for it and it is not productive

This, in the main is a good thread, with good discussion and think we can all agree ,we do not want spoilt by a few, this is not going to happen


Thank you
 
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I like the idea of noting an electric cooker if fitted, if gas supply behind it, am surprised duel fuel cookers are never mentioned I state gas top hob, electric oven and grill, were applicable

I note any gas appliances that has been previously capped off and state ''not to be reconnected and used'' without further inspection

Do not really like the idea of unused gas appliances being just capped and left in position,especially in cheaper maintained properties were heating may be poor,it is just asking someone to reconnect a dangerous appliance for some extra heat ect,alway make note that appliance should be removed

Also now I have started noting the actual size/type of ventilation if required and were located

Must admit now that I come across less open flued boilers, making it more manageable ,thinking taking pics of installation

Also as I have said before ,if I do a gas check on a opened flue appliance, I insist they have a co2 alarm placed near appliance, as cost of these units so low now and once explained to l/l have not had any who really kick up any fuss

Would add that these units would be really cheap for the gas suppliers to purchase in bulk and would like to be sent out/or given out via all gas engineers to people free who had open flue appliances,like energy saving light bulbs and condoms are !
:)
 
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Would add that these units would be really cheap for the gas suppliers to purchase in bulk and would like to be sent out/or given out via all gas engineers to people free who had open flue appliances,like energy saving light bulbs and condoms are !
:)



this is a good point - not sure the gas suppliers would go for it - but i dont see any reason for the owners of the property to supply these for open flued appliances if it doesnt cost too much.
 
Sometimes it's difficult to get tenants to do away with their old appliances. Very first service I did, a lovely old boy in his 80's had a cooker that had been ID'd about six years ago. The thing was in pristine condition--a museum piece! I offered to have it carted away, but bless him, he said it was his mother's cooker and had sentimental value. Fortunately, it was cut and capped.
 
Ben, we supply a boiler which by law we are obliged to check. It is no different than a flue we supply, regardless of whether it's connected to our fire or a tenant's. We have a duty of care ensure the things we provide are safe; the law says we are obliged to check it.

A boiler is a gas appliance, and as such, the landlord is obliged to maintain it, and have it annually inspected.
A chimney is not an appliance, and if the tenant is using that for his own fire, than HE has a legal obligation TO THE LANDLORD to :
Ensure that the appliance is installed legally and safely.
Maintain it to a safe standard.

Removing a fire to have a look at the chimney is pointless because:

A visual inspection of a small part of the chimney will not give a conclusive picture.
It does not constitute a proper test/inspection
To do that properly, the fire has to be in place.
 
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A boiler is a gas appliance, and as such, the landlord is obliged to maintain it, and have it annually inspected.
A chimney is not an appliance, and if the tenant is using that for his own fire, than HE has a legal obligation TO THE LANDLORD to :
Ensure that the appliance is installed legally and safely.
Maintain it to a safe standard.

Removing a fire to have a look at the chimney is pointless because:

A visual inspection of a small part of the chimney will not give a conclusive picture.
It does not constitute a proper test/inspection
To do that properly, the fire has to be in place.

No Ben its not just looked at it has a smoke test to ensure it pulls correctly to clear any products ofcombustion that come from the tenants own 'appliance'
 
When i do gas saftey checks i always asked has the boiler been serviced in the last 12 months if no,then i say that it has to be serviced too and it will cost X amount

if it has been serviced i ask for the receipt of previous engineer then i just gas safety check

if they have not got one and say it has been serviced,i have learnt all customers tend to be not so truthful so i say regardless it will still need to be serviced to satisfy me and i know that it has been done properly
 
anyone who is carrying out a full service for the price of a CP12 needs to get their heading seen to
 
My old man has 9 properties in manchester and before i became gas registered he was charged ÂŁ37.50 for a landlord cert. do you reckon he serviced an open flue'd fire gas hob/oven and boiler included in that price i think we all know the answer to that. he did it at that price for one reason, lanlords generally do not maintain appliances by services so he got a lot of work replacing and fixing stuff. myself can't believe he charged ÂŁ37.50 for a landlord(2009) cert min has to be at least ÂŁ50.00 for 3 appliances
 
no chance - landlord check consists of visual checks - analyser - gas pressures. if any of them are not right then i suggest a service or repair and ar or id the boiler - landlords are trying there best to get this cheaper and cheaper - and many heating engineers are driving down the prices - if they want a service they can have it service no problem if they want it checked i will check it - they are 2 different services and i point this out. An mot on a car is equivelant to a landlord safety check - a service is as it says on the tin a service.

on newer boilers such as the worcestors i wont check fan pressures unless its a service - gas pressures and analyser only. sorry mr landlord but the service is extra even if im only checking one thing more. Im fed up of this trade being saturated anymore than it is already.

total respect,i thought i was alone.
 
Say if it is the tenants gas appliance, say like the example of fire being tenants but not the chimney.. would you not even touch the appliances and carry on with the other appliances or carry out a visual inspection, my question been should you have anything to do with a tenants appliances.. Also maybe check that it had been installed by a RGI and if it hadn't act on it. Or visually inspect it only then maybe act on the visual inspection, and maybe find its ID/AR, even though its not the landlords and you may not have permission or have been invited to work on it?
 
there is a TB on this, it depends on what work is done if you dont interupt the supply you do a 5 point visual on the tenants cooker, location, flue, ventilation, signs of distress & stabl and secure, if you do interupt the supply you do a 6 point visual which adds checking flame picture, you have been invited to inspect ,the installation by the owner so you have a right to do the visual, as the owner must confirm property is safe, so if you fid AR or ID on tenants cooker you act on it on behalf of the owner, easy peasy
 
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