is time served the same as an apprenticeship

[GQuigley67]

must be too expensive lol

 

[fuzzy]

they should introduce a trade test like every other trade at the end of apprenticeship

we used to have this and it was changed to be continual assessment, i think all trades are the same. many smaller assessments throughout the year is easier to achieve imo. having said that, what was stopping somebody doing nothing for 2 years and then passing the end test?

 

[Gray0689]

I have much the same opinion of colleges as Gray.
4 lads i sent through collage and the standard of teaching definitely dropped over the years. So much so i complained to both the collage and Snipef with the last one. How can you pass an exam, or stupid module as they are now, and be totally clueless on the subject? It happens all the time because there is no need to actually memorise anything when you have the books in front of you.

I think it is an overall education thing though and not just confined to colleges.

You put it a lot beter than me tamz
To me learning is about hands on

 

[GQuigley67]

sparks, joiners, painters etc still do a trades test

 

[fuzzy]

Yes I call it basic nvq3 as I see 2 of our boys doing it and they hate going as they learn nothing that's in there words we don't go gas over here we do oil
So I can't comment on gas side I did gas separate and never touched any natural just LPG
Unvented can be done in 2 days
Maybe your colleges are a lot better I don't know but where I live to be frank I think there crap
You say it gives complete training plumb up a couple of rads in black iron on industrial install lol what does that teach how to use a hand threader that's about it
I saw boys who only did industrial plumbing and did not have a clue about domestic but still passed gave you ever heard of ANYONE failing I have not
That's my opinion

"un-vented" can be done in 2 days - only if you are experienced, not a newbie
"a couple of rads in black iron on industrial install lol what does that teach how to use a hand threader that's about it" They cannot teach you to install a complete office block or similar! thats for work to do, the college is there to give the underpinning skills, measure, cut, mark, knock off center to end of thread, thread joint, use jointing compound, tighten fitting, mark walls, fit rad level and put together then test. This can then be applied when on site to a larger scale
"ever heard of ANYONE failing I have not" ooh yes i have, its unlikely all will pass. what often happens is learners realise they cannot pass and its beyond them and they leave the course, technically they haven't failed, just left the course due to some circumstance. All exams are on line and I'd be surprised if most plumbers could walk in and pass without revision
"I see 2 of our boys doing it and they hate going as they learn nothing" I have heard young employees say they learn nothing at college, this is often because they are too lazy to learn, dont want to do the work and its easier to blame the college than it is to go back to work and tell the truth, this may not be the case with your 2, but it is the case in the majority of my experience


​What was your own experience when you went to college as an apprentice? did you do the NVQ3 or the C&G advanced certificate?

 

[fuzzy]

sparks, joiners, painters etc still do a trades test

ill have to take your word for that mate, i thought most if not all were continual assessment. im not sure were i stand on this one, i see benefits of each system

 

[GQuigley67]

i remember all my mates panicing about their trades test around the time i was panicing about my ACS lol

 

[fuzzy]

You put it a lot beter than me tamz
To me learning is about hands on

with building servcies trades become more complex and sophisticated I feel the theory side of our trade is becoming more important. If anything with the introduction of jointing like speedfit the actual practical skills are less than they were a few decades ago. However systems are far more sophisticated

 

[Gray0689]

Yes nvq3
Not lazy good lads
I have seen complete numptys pass nvq3 could not join there hands together if they stay till end they WILL pass
Fuzzy I'm guessing your an instructor??

 

[fuzzy]

i remember all my mates panicing about their trades test around the time i was panicing about my ACS lol

yes thats the counter argument, somebody could be very good all throughout the qual and then bottle it on assessment day. I suppose you could counter counter (lol) with, in life you are put under pressure and you have to deal with it. too many doo gooders to let us put people under that pressure as often these days

 

[fuzzy]

Yes nvq3
Not lazy good lads
I have seen complete numptys pass nvq3 could not join there hands together if they stay till end they WILL pass
Fuzzy I'm guessing your an instructor??

Not lazy - i'm glad for you, im sorry the college is letting them down
Numptys pass nvq3 - if i did i would report the centre/college
guessing - im not an instructor, but i have done lots of courses and worked with trainees, i welcome people training and feel some people dont give it the credit it deserves, as i say, im sorry is not your experience

 

[tamz]

many smaller assessments throughout the year is easier to achieve imo.

Maybe here lies the biggest problem.

Today lads we are doing water supplies to multistory buildings. Here is a drawing of how the place is piped. That valve does that, the pumps are for that, they stick a tank in here and there and that pipe is empty unless the place is on fire. You won't need to know too much more about this because you will probably never see one. If you do your book will be lying up in yer mams loft nice and handy. All clear on this? Right we'll have a wee test then go for a ***. Of course you can read your book. That is where the answers are!

Quality teaching the modern way! (slightly exageratd lol)

The trade tests up here are practical tests. eg a joiner will have to build a small hipped roof or something similar and are marked on the practical skills. Thes marks can have a big influence on their employment especially with bigger firms. They do the same modules as everyone else for theory.

 

[Gray0689]

I'm not knocking training at all done loads of realy good courses and learnt a lot
But the plumbing nvqs are not teaching what is needed in plumbing in my eyes
As for today's plumbing being more technical in some aspects it is but I see a lot going back to more wood burning stoves log burners teed in to heating but then incorperating underfloor systems solar ect so a little different but still simple enough
I think the hole industry is in a real mess at this present time

 

[fuzzy]

i hear you tamz and theres alot to be said for end assessments but theres alot to be said for unit assessment also. modern teaching prefers continually assessment allowing the candidate to receive continual feedback. No point leaving it until the end of 2 years to find out youve been doing it wrong! Many people respect the ACS but that is open book? Not all plumbing assessments are, in fact currently only 1 of the 20 are

 

[fuzzy]

I'm not knocking training at all done loads of realy good courses and learnt a lot
But the plumbing nvqs are not teaching what is needed in plumbing in my eyes
As for today's plumbing being more technical in some aspects it is but I see a lot going back to more wood burning stoves log burners teed in to heating but then incorperating underfloor systems solar ect so a little different but still simple enough
I think the hole industry is in a real mess at this present time

i think there are issues with the trade but i think youre remark that it is in a real mess is a bit extreem.
You do know the current NVQ's are finishing and being replaced by a diploma
i presume you did the C&G's advanced qualification and not the nvq3?

 

[Gray0689]

In my local college they go over the exam before it's taken then if they get less than 80% have to do again then they fo it verbal till passed and that goes on till the end

 

[Gray0689]

I did nvq3 why

 

[fuzzy]

In my local college they go over the exam before it's taken then if they get less than 80% have to do again then they fo it verbal till passed and that goes on till the end

that was the old system, they needed to get at least 70% to get a second chance, if they didnt it was a fail. all exams are now online and cannot have a 2nd chance. its also impossible to go over the paper as theres a bank of questions and they dont know which questions they will get

a friend i used to work with went tutoring about 5 years ago (against our advice lol), maybe more, he tells me how good the nvqs are, i think the old ones gave it a bad name

 

[fuzzy]

I did nvq3 why

so did you have a low opinion of your own nvq3? there have been 3 of them, do you know which yours was?

 

[Gray0689]

Yes thought it was a waste of time to be honest and that's how they do it at our local college only one they do online is the last one

 

[fuzzy]

Yes thought it was a waste of time to be honest and that's how they do it at our local college only one they do online is the last one

well thats out of date, im not even sure they can do that anymore, are you sure they still do it that way?

my tutor friend, Tony S, said he got lots of complaints from a group once, they said the previous tutor was a waste of time and taught them nothing, not sure what the subject was but say it was cold water, he started to ask them cold water questions and they answered them all, they were happy and smug as they did so, upon completion he said " so he taught you nothing did he?".

I think we tend to look back and think that at times, im sure we learn all the time without knowing it, imagine your own days at work, you are always gaining from every job. Now I agree there are good and bad teachers, there was at school, theres good and bad plumbers, but lets not take one experience and say its common across the whole plumbing sector.

Consider this, you came through the educational system and you are working as a successful plumber, that has to be regarded as a success

 

[Gray0689]

well thats out of date, im not even sure they can do that anymore, are you sure they still do it that way?

my tutor friend, Tony S, said he got lots of complaints from a group once, they said the previous tutor was a waste of time and taught them nothing, not sure what the subject was but say it was cold water, he started to ask them cold water questions and they answered them all, they were happy and smug as they did so, upon completion he said " so he taught you nothing did he?". I think we tend to look back and think that at times, im sure we learn all the time without knowing it, imagine your own days at work, you are always gaining from every job. now i agree there are good and bad teachers, there was at school, theres good and bad plumbers, but lets not take one experience and say its common across the board

I'm only saying it's common in my area can't comment on other areas
But I see I'm not alone in these comments
Tamz sees it as a problem also and I'm sure there will be others also
IMHO
Colleges are passing peaple couse they get funding and questions are asked if these peaple don't pass I have never heard of anyone over here failing if they are still there till the end your level 3 might be different if you do gas we don't

 

[fuzzy]

sorry, edited my thread as you were posting so reads a little different. Im not so sure Tamz sees it as negatively as you do, maybe he does. But lets keep a steady head, 2 people on a forum say they dont rate the current system (that is changing as said before) and you have made an assumption that there are more, that cannot be held as a majority view for the British educational system.

remember, if you are now successful, the system hasnt failed you

 

[Gray0689]

I never said the system failed me lol bit ott
Just didn't learn a lot think the college bit could be condensed down a lot in time wise and a lot more put on site work with a lot more site visits

 

[fuzzy]

college is one day a week, the other 4 are on site, that 1/5th of the training at best considering there are only about 36 school weeks a year, so the majority of the training is already done onsite.
is more site visits the answer? if you dont respect the college tutors why would you want them to come to site and visit you and how would this improve the education?
I know you never said the system failed you, but you have been very very negative about education and NVQs, my point is, if its so bad people would not have become a success under that system

 

[Gray0689]

Right I said nvq when did I mention education in a hole?
Over here it is 2 days a week for 2 years then 1 day after that
If not in full time work it is 3 days for first 2 years
You have your opinion I have mine everyone I know in plumbing over here thinks the system needs changing and as you have said it's changing let's hope this helps

 

[GQuigley67]

here its a week in college every 3rd week for 3 years in the normal school hours and holidays, rest is on site

 

[tamz]

I am probably more against the modern way of teaching with continual assessment than colleges per se. It may have some advantages but it certainly does not encourage study.
But, it is also down to the quality of the teachers. If the teachers are bad at getting their point across everyone will struggle to understand but the students will nonetheless still pass because of the way the system is set up. No one fails anything in this word anymore incase it gives them a useless b complex.

Summit skills had a consultation with employers last year where we were asked what, in our opinion, should be included or dropped from the syllabus. There have been a few changes implemented with renewables etc being included but as far as i'm aware leadwork will still be in there to some extent due to the request of the majority of employers.

 

[fuzzy]

no lead in main qual tamz, it is an optional unit though

renewables is also only an option at l3, you choose that wet gas, oil or warm air gas. i suspect there is some basic content built in though

QCF will only take assessment further away from end tests as they MUST be unitised. It allows people to do one unit a year if they prefer and still succeed at the end. people can pick one unit they fancy from another trade and so on, in theory that is

its impossible to fail an NVQ, if you do it wrong you just haven't met that criteria yet. therefore in theory its impossible to fail, you just haven't passed yet

 

[fuzzy]

here its a week in college every 3rd week for 3 years in the normal school hours and holidays, rest is on site

prob works out about the same

 

[tamz]

Remember L2 is not an option up here. You are signing up for the 3 years min with the option of 4 if you are clever enough :wink: lol

 

[GQuigley67]

I done 4 year apprenticeship, 3 years at college. I heard about an extra year at college you could do more for a supervisor role, but didn't hear much to be honest.

 

[fuzzy]

Remember L2 is not an option up here. You are signing up for the 3 years min with the option of 4 if you are clever enough :wink: lol

ill hold on the 4!!!

i keep forgetting your from up there! keep forgetting they sign up for L3. youll need to remind me again in a couple of days time

 

[Blackcatgas]

Scotland has got it right on so many things, selling a house without getting screwed, squaters rights (or lack of them) to name a few, Buckfast etc.

 

[GQuigley67]

buckfast is made in england funnily enough, but gets associated with scotland