is time served the same as an apprenticeship

[SafeGasInstall]

aint you gave up smoking yet ?????

 

[Gray0689]

But the *** shop closed down tamz lol

 

[tamz]

6 days off them and still talking to the wife lol

 

[Gray0689]

Lol is she still talking to you lol

 

[tamz]

She's proud of me!

 

[mickie]

i must be very hard for someone trying to get into plumbing at a older age without being time served, ive been doing this for 14 yr now and still dont know everything, im lucky that my dads been doing it all his life and my grandad worked for bg too..

but you're only as good as your teacher and ive found the older i get the less i ask off my dad. i need to search and ask gas safe a lot more.. for someone not to be time served must be a right pain, i can imagine them bodge jobing everything and the other half sticking with searching a lot through books, internat and ringing gas safe..

aslong as you do things right and by the book, i cant see a problem with being time served or not

 

[REDSAW]

i have an uncle who fought in the suez crisis as a sapper and went to korea or something for a few years then was demobbed.
he went to work for my grandads building business and covered all the plumbing works somewhere around 1969?. he cant read or write too well and didnt do college, i make him around 76 now, and he still does 40 hours a week and is found most weeks pointing out a chimneys or dropping down a flue liner or digging up a service main even in the middle of winter.

not sure now as i allways thought he was time served (40 years in the trade), guess he's just a .c.c.c when you think about it then as he wasnt 16 when he started neither?

 

[Gray0689]

i have an uncle who fought in the suez crisis as a sapper and went to korea or something for a few years then was demobbed.
he went to work for my grandads building business and covered all the plumbing works somewhere around 1969?. he cant read or write too well and didnt do college, i make him around 76 now, and he still does 40 hours a week and is found most weeks pointing out a chimneys or dropping down a flue liner or digging up a service main even in the middle of winter.

not sure now as i allways thought he was time served (40 years in the trade), guess he's just a .c.c.c when you think about it then as he wasnt 16 when he started neither?

Redsaw make sure you point out to your uncle that as he has only been plumbing for 40 years he is not a time served plumber lol

 

[tony n]

Think I started something here lol... To be honest does it really matter how long you have been doing it as long as u are qualified, safe and know what you are doing. Everyone has there own opinion but like I said before I have seen people who have been doing this for years and still not too sure on alot of things, others who have been 1-2 years and they seem to be spot on with everything. I think the cowboys who go out not registered are the ones who are the real problem.

 

[GQuigley67]

it all depends on the individual we all know that there are right mongs out there who have been doing this job for years but in the eyes of most because they are "experienced" they must be good

 

[Gray0689]

Think I started something here lol... To be honest does it really matter how long you have been doing it as long as u are qualified, safe and know what you are doing. Everyone has there own opinion but like I said before I have seen people who have been doing this for years and still not too sure on alot of things, others who have been 1-2 years and they seem to be spot on with everything. I think the cowboys who go out not registered are the ones who are the real problem.

Well it was you who started it so yes to you it does matter

 

[fuzzy]

Re: Passed!!!

well said redsaw mate, dont see how me not doing an apprentiship doesnt make me time served. Not everyone can get on an apprentiship and there seems to be a pattern now that unless u have done a 5 year apprentiship your not up to scratch, i dont agree at all. I have spent time with engineers that have done full apprentiships and they would not know their rse from there elbow, some on the other hand are excellent.

you may be right but the term time served is known commonly or refers normally to somebody who has done a full 4 year apprentiiceship

 

[Gray0689]

you may be right but the term time served is known commonly or refers normally to somebody who has done a full 4 year apprentiiceship

So your saying it don't mater what age as long as you do your 4years go to college and get your nvqs is this time served?????

 

[fuzzy]

So your saying it don't mater what age as long as you do your 4years go to college and get your nvqs is this time served?????

going to college and doing nvq's isnt necessarily an apprenticeship. Check out the plumbing & heating tab on this link [DLMURL="http://www.summitskills.org.uk/Apprenticeships/498"]SummitSkills | Apprenticeship frameworks[/DLMURL]

 

[Gray0689]

going to college and doing nvq's isnt necessarily an apprenticeship. Check out the plumbing & heating tab on this link [DLMURL="http://www.summitskills.org.uk/Apprenticeships/498"]SummitSkills | Apprenticeship frameworks[/DLMURL]

Lol a diplomat answer

Any apprentice we have ever had did not learn very much at collage was learnt out on site

 

[gmac]

My personal view is alot depends on the person, there plenty of so called plumbers who have done an apprenticeship after leaving school and really should never have got the quals, I've been there with them in the past, I've had unqualified men working for me in the past who were in a league of their own when it came to plumbing, So regardless of whether they've been to college and got nvqs I couldn't care less, nvq's don't mean what they're meant to mean, plenty of people with them not competent through the apprenticeship route as well as fast tracking, personally i'd employ a competent unqualifed plumber over an incompetent qualified plumber everytime.

 

[fuzzy]

Lol a diplomat answer

Any apprentice we have ever had did not learn very much at collage was learnt out on site

Not surprised if you sent them a collage, you should have sent them to a College, lol

I hear that a lot (more often than not those who didn't do a traditional apprenticeship), in my own experience I learned much at work but all the underpinning knowledge and basic skills came from College. When I was still in my early days I would often recall things I learned at College when in a new situation. If you learn the basics well in anything you can always refer back to them when struggling. I honestly believe its a case of both aspects are very important, College for underpinning knowledge and theory background and work to apply it. One without the other doesnt give you the full perspective or training required to be at the top of your game. There will always be exceptions to this rule but im talking about the majority.

Plus, my suggestion of what is 'time served' is just the normal use of the term, i dont know if its correct or not but it is what its known as.

I'm not an apprentice snob, i think there are some, there should always be routes to become qualified, i feel like much in society the pendulum has swung to far towards making it too easily accesible, but going to a closed shop isnt the answer either, we need a healthy balance

 

[fuzzy]

My personal view is alot depends on the person, there plenty of so called plumbers who have done an apprenticeship after leaving school and really should never have got the quals, I've been there with them in the past, I've had unqualified men working for me in the past who were in a league of their own when it came to plumbing, So regardless of whether they've been to college and got nvqs I couldn't care less, nvq's don't mean what they're meant to mean, plenty of people with them not competent through the apprenticeship route as well as fast tracking, personally i'd employ a competent unqualifed plumber over an incompetent qualified plumber everytime.

I hear you but there are always exceptions to the rule. i think a balance is best. i would never ever disregard quality worth while training at a centre/college. Just because some people have left and have been rubbish does not mean the system does not work, there are many people, me included had a good experience and I'm glad I had that experience

 

[Gray0689]

The biggest problem I see with college (not very good at spelling obviously lol)
Is the the teachers themselves are not very good (not saying all just in my experience) they no very little about real world plumbing just very basic stuff that could be picked up after a couple of months out on site

 

[fuzzy]

Im sorry thats your experience Gray, fortunately it isnt mine. In their defense they can only teach what is in the scheme, they dont have the authority to teach what they want. Plus every company is different, how would they know what each employer wanted/needed, they just have to do the basics and do it well

 

[gmac]

I understand other peoples views fully. I would look upon time-served as an old school term, if i was recruiting I would be quoting time-served or qualified plumber in the add, alot of old school boys don't have the quals but are very clued up in all aspects of the game,

 

[Blackcatgas]

The biggest problem I see with college (not very good at spelling obviously lol)
Is the the teachers themselves are not very good (not saying all just in my experience) they no very little about real world plumbing just very basic stuff that could be picked up after a couple of months out on site

This is the guy that taught me [DLMURL="http://www.ericmace.co.uk/experience.php"]Eric Mace[/DLMURL]
He is a legend, nobody played up in his lessons because we all had respect for him, out of the 3 lecturers we had only 1 was a bellend but to be fair he had forgotten more about plumbing than I know.

 

[gmac]

Is it a possibility that the tutors/teachers whatever you want to call them are entering the teaching game too soon and it should be mandatory to have a set number of years working on sites before allowing them teach the trade

 

[fuzzy]

it is advised that tutors have relevant industrial experience but as far as i know there is no minimum mount of time. for example you can get people who have flown through the qual, been on site one year and could be brilliant tutors. there can be people who have all the quals in the world and 40 years experience and may not be able to get their points across ie teach. Its difficult to put definites on it you just need a good balance of everything

to assess work in any trade you need to be qualified to advanced level and have a minimum of 5 years post qual experience

 

[markfxy]

Company I used to work for classed time served as either a 4 year apprenticeship with college or 7 years as an improver HVCA rules I think. Can't see anyone wanting to do 7 years now before they're qualified. Do they still have improvers?

 

[Gray0689]

Maybe just the tec near me tutors just ok
But the teaching sylibus is very much outdated to today's plumbing I'm only speaking for where I live we don't do lead we don't do any guttering
Yes teaches basic principles but this is over 4 years come on I learn more in first 6 months on site than I did at 4 years in tec lol

 

[fuzzy]

Just remember, the plumbing qualification is about complete plumbing, not just what you choose to do onsite. It is there to give people all the underpinning knowledge and skills of the complete trade, i would call it out of date because your company choose not to do it.
The new diplomas have been updated considerably, the L3 has comprehensive system wiring, un-vented, condensing boiler install, fault finding, water regs, system design etc. If you consider all that basic then you are far more intelligent and skilled than me!!!

When you consider basic, are you referring to the level 2 only? that takes 2 years (for NVQ)

 

[tamz]

I have much the same opinion of colleges as Gray.
4 lads i sent through collage and the standard of teaching definitely dropped over the years. So much so i complained to both the collage and Snipef with the last one. How can you pass an exam, or stupid module as they are now, and be totally clueless on the subject? It happens all the time because there is no need to actually memorise anything when you have the books in front of you.

I think it is an overall education thing though and not just confined to colleges.

 

[fuzzy]

i suggest you stop sending them to collage tamz, lol

 

[GQuigley67]

they should introduce a trade test like every other trade at the end of apprenticeship

 

[tamz]

i suggest you stop sending them to collage tamz, lol

Oh i made sure he learned lol

 

[fuzzy]

I have much the same opinion of colleges as Gray.
4 lads i sent through collage and the standard of teaching definitely dropped over the years. So much so i complained to both the collage and Snipef with the last one. How can you pass an exam, or stupid module as they are now, and be totally clueless on the subject? It happens all the time because there is no need to actually memorise anything when you have the books in front of you.

I think it is an overall education thing though and not just confined to colleges.

mmmm i dont entirely agree. i think we always feel it was better years ago, i think theres a lot of good done in colleges. it is true to say with the expansion of plumbing trainees that colleges took on many new staff, they couldnt train them as teachers and assessors quick enough though, so whilst this was happening i wouldnt be surprised if the standard was lowered. i think with inspections and quality controls its hard for colleges not to keep high standards without sanctions against them, and with the introduction of the new qualification i think the temporary lowering of teaching will quickly rise again

 

[fuzzy]

Oh i made sure he learned lol

send em to college instead (sorry mate, couldn't resist)

 

[Gray0689]

Just remember, the plumbing qualification is about complete plumbing, not just what you choose to do onsite. It is there to give people all the underpinning knowledge and skills of the complete trade, i would call it out of date because your company choose not to do it.
The new diplomas have been updated considerably, the L3 has comprehensive system wiring, un-vented, condensing boiler install, fault finding, water regs, system design etc. If you consider all that basic then you are far more intelligent and skilled than me!!!

When you consider basic, are you referring to the level 2 only? that takes 2 years (for NVQ)

Yes I call it basic nvq3 as I see 2 of our boys doing it and they hate going as they learn nothing that's in there words we don't go gas over here we do oil
So I can't comment on gas side I did gas separate and never touched any natural just LPG
Unvented can be done in 2 days
Maybe your colleges are a lot better I don't know but where I live to be frank I think there crap
You say it gives complete training plumb up a couple of rads in black iron on industrial install lol what does that teach how to use a hand threader that's about it
I saw boys who only did industrial plumbing and did not have a clue about domestic but still passed gave you ever heard of ANYONE failing I have not
That's my opinion

 

[Gray0689]

they should introduce a trade test like every other trade at the end of apprenticeship

That would be a very good thing