is an ECV actually mainly used as a Service Valve ???

[Dean Williams]

At the time they dug up and disconnected it was NOT your supply.
It was a deadleg of gas pipe entering a property.



They have complied with the law.

The Gas Regs are not a code of practice they are Legislation set in Law.

what you don't seem to realize is that the problem is that they dont even understand the regulation let alone knoe anything about law lol

 

[snowhead]

It would have been more helpfull of you'd have posted the full story at the begining of this thread instead of going the long way round.

There's obviously been a cock up internally and as you appear to have some evidence they should be able to sort it out, without the Ombudsman.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

i would say your fault as you havent let them know direct and you ignored there letter of disconnection thinking it was a computer gen random

always with these sort of company's phone them direct and get a emailed receipt

 

[Dean Williams]

It would have been more helpfull of you'd have posted the full story at the begining of this thread instead of going the long way round.

There's obviously been a cock up internally and as you appear to have some evidence they should be able to sort it out, without the Ombudsman.

I did not tell the full story as i was also wanting to point out my "main point" ....irrespective of the things i was doing to get a meter connected which they say they were unaware of ......they still had no legal right under the section of the legislation they refer to as the reason why they are entitled to cut off my supply ,,,,there is a clear caveat in that legislation that states that only if there is no such service valve as is mentioned in sub-paragraph (a)(i) should disconnection take place ..... and in my case all 3 items mentioned in this section were in place

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I did not tell the full story as i was also wanting to point out my "main point" ..irrespective of the things i was doing to get a meter connected which they say they were unaware of ....they still had no legal right under the section of the legislation they refer to as the reason why they are entitled to cut off my supply ,,,,there is a clear caveat in that legislation that states that only if there is no such service valve as is mentioned in sub-paragraph (a)(i) should disconnection take place ... and in my case all 3 items mentioned in this section were in place

but this is not law to them they have a different set of rules under the transport

 

[Dean Williams]

i would say your fault as you havent let them know direct and you ignored there letter of disconnection thinking it was a computer gen random

always with these sort of company's phone them direct and get a emailed receipt

you must not have read my last message , i did ring them direct but got no human just music playing for 25 mins saying they will answer me shortly ....this phone call copst me £18 and i have proof on my phone bill to show them

 

[ShaunCorbs]

you must not have read my last message , i did ring them direct but got no human just music playing for 25 mins saying they will answer me shortly ..this phone call copst me £18 and i have proof on my phone bill to show them

doesnt matter still didnt speak to someone you try being this end of the line and trying to price for stuff like this its ridiculous

 

[snowhead]

there is a clear caveat in that legislation that states that only if there is no such service valve as is mentioned in sub-paragraph (a)(i) should disconnection take place ... and in my case all 3 items mentioned in this section were in place

If this is what your arguement is based on it is seriously flawed.
You've misunderstood what's meant by the statement in 3 (a) (i).

What it's saying is if a replacement meter is not to be installed and the Service valve, or ECV which we've agreed acts as a service valve, does NOT control the supply to ANOTHER PRIMARY METER ( eg a single supply to a property with multiple Primary meters like a block of flats) then the ECV / Service valve can be capped and the supply can later be disconnected in the street.

If it does supply multiple Primary meters, which would mean multiple bill payers, then it cannot be capped and cannot later be disconnected in the street.

You're reading it as where there is an ECV in place, which is what you had, it cannot be capped and later disconnected.
That's not what it says.

 

[Dean Williams]

If this is what your arguement is based on it is seriously flawed.
You've misunderstood what's meant by the statement in 3 (a) (i).

What it's saying is if a replacement meter is not to be installed and the Service valve, or ECV which we've agreed acts as a service valve, does NOT control the supply to ANOTHER PRIMARY METER ( eg a single supply to a property with multiple Primary meters like a block of flats) then the ECV / Service valve can be capped and the supply can later be disconnected in the street.

If it does supply multiple Primary meters, which would mean multiple bill payers, then it cannot be capped and cannot later be disconnected in the street.

You're reading it as where there is an ECV in place, which is what you had, it cannot be capped and later disconnected.
That's not what it says.

ok ok ok ...lets get back to basics ...... why under health and safety regulations would anyone want or need to dig up the road and remove someones gas service if :-
1. The primary meter is removed
2 Any service valve which controlled the supply of gas to that meter is turned off ........e.g ECV turned off
3. The outlet of the emergency control has been sealed with an appropriate fitting
4.The required label is in place that clearly mark any live gas pipe in the premises in which the meter was installed to the effect that the pipe contains gas.

All as shown in attached pic in the cellar of my property

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Because it's not deemed a permanent cap end, you could undo the cap with your hands and open the gas supply

 

[Dean Williams]

Because it's not deemed a permanent cap end, you could undo the cap with your hands and open the gas supply

If that is the case why does the regulation say that the service only has to be removed after 12 months of there not being a meter in place ......are you saying it is safe for a FULL year and then it suddenly becomes unsafe !!!!!

 

[ShaunCorbs]

If that is the case why does the regulation say that the service only has to be removed after 12 months of there not being a meter in place ....are you saying it is safe for a FULL year and then it suddenly becomes unsafe !!!!!

Because your reading our regs and not the transportation regs and rules

 

[Dean Williams]

If that is the case why does the regulation say that the service only has to be removed after 12 months of there not being a meter in place ....are you saying it is safe for a FULL year and then it suddenly becomes unsafe !!!!!

and surely you have to be gas safe registered to remove such a cap

 

[ShaunCorbs]

and surely you have to be gas safe registered to remove such a cap

You can do what you want nothing to stop you other than the law

 

[Dean Williams]

And its the statutory instrument which is "the law" that i am quoting

 

[Dean Williams]

i am trying to point out s unintentional consequence of misinterpretation of the regulation

 

[Dean Williams]

what i am trying to point out is unintentional consequence of misinterpretation of the regulation

 

[ShaunCorbs]

And its the statutory instrument which is "the law" that i am quoting

Not for national grid

 

[Dean Williams]

no i mean for the taxpayer

 

[Dean Williams]

Not for national grid

you mean not for the understanding of National grid ,,,,well i will see them in court lol

 

[ShaunCorbs]

you mean not for the understanding of National grid ,,,,well i will see them in court lol

You won't get anywhere sorry to Say and I'm out good luck

 

[Dean Williams]

You won't get anywhere sorry to Say and I'm out good luck

thanks for you input

 

[Chalked]

If that is the case why does the regulation say that the service only has to be removed after 12 months of there not being a meter in place ....are you saying it is safe for a FULL year and then it suddenly becomes unsafe !!!!!

Because there has to be a time. They won't disconnect after a few days. Also as a duty of care , they can't leave it for ever.

If your looking for the answer that you want ( their fault) your not going to get it here. We are not sticking up for transco ( trust me we all have trouble with them) .
Don't cause yourself unnecessary hassle, by going down the complaint route. Look at the facts.
They have a right to disconnect.
You didn't contact them to tell them not to. ( I know you tried, but no contact was made)
You are going to have to pay for the new supplies. And as they are also very slow, you better get on with it quick! Where I live, it can take a min of 8 weeks! So all the time you waste will only hinder your project.

 

[Dean Williams]

Because there has to be a time. They won't disconnect after a few days. Also as a duty of care , they can't leave it for ever.

If your looking for the answer that you want ( their fault) your not going to get it here. We are not sticking up for transco ( trust me we all have trouble with them) .
Don't cause yourself unnecessary hassle, by perusing this. Look at the facts.
They have a right to disconnect.
You didn't contact them to tell them not to. ( I know you tried, but no contact was made)
You are going to have to pay for the new supplies. And as they are also very slow, you better get on with it quick! Where I live, it can take a min of 8 weeks! So all the time you waste will only hinder your project.

you must not have read my messages properly
1. i did contact them and even had a National grid engineer come out a couple of weeks before the disconnection who certified the supply to be live and safe to connect to a meter ....... they have NO right to disconnect under the statutory instrument 1998 No2541.....what more do i need to win lol ..........a magic wand maybe lol

 

[Chalked]

Looks like you know how this will end up?

I've been doing this for 36 years. You will speak to a call Center and get nowhere.

 

[Dean Williams]

Looks like you know how this will end up?

I've been doing this for 36 years. You will speak to a call Center and get nowhere.

for entertainment purposes the outcome will be posted lol

 

[Last Plumber]

If that is the case why does the regulation say that the service only has to be removed after 12 months of there not being a meter in place ....are you saying it is safe for a FULL year and then it suddenly becomes unsafe !!!!!

Not safe for 12 month's and then unsafe no!

Twelve Month's is a reasonable amount of time for a dormant service to remain in place with a temporary cap. The plug cock and cap you have is, or was, more than likely still safe but it is not considered a permanent disconnection.

I think you are missing the point. They own the service pipe as I have said earlier.
They are constantly upgrading, altering and maintaining things for all sorts of reasons. There are more regulations and standards than you can shake a stick at.
Read this for example - this document should be read in conjunction with this one - decommissioning unused service pipes is something that is done for health and safety reasons.

I personally think the message not getting through to the right department is your issue. You perhaps need to concentrate on getting to the bottom of that first and foremost but I don't think you will get any joy.

If you take them to court, I expect it to cost you considerably and get you to the stage where you will still need to apply for reinstatement of service.

The two documents I posted links to are among a myriad of them. The Gas distribution network companies, do know their legal standing and duties.

 

[snowhead]

Given the situation I'd personally get a quote from them for the 2 new supplies and then try and do a deal of reduced cost based on their failings over disconnecting the existing supply.

However given the attitiude and approach the O.P has exibited on this thread I think he'll be lucky to get gas into the property at all.

 

[Dean Williams]

Not safe for 12 month's and then unsafe no!

Twelve Month's is a reasonable amount of time for a dormant service to remain in place with a temporary cap. The plug cock and cap you have is, or was, more than likely still safe but it is not considered a permanent disconnection.

I think you are missing the point. They own the service pipe as I have said earlier.
They are constantly upgrading, altering and maintaining things for all sorts of reasons. There are more regulations and standards than you can shake a stick at.
Read this for example - this document should be read in conjunction with this one - decommissioning unused service pipes is something that is done for health and safety reasons.

I personally think the message not getting through to the right department is your issue. You perhaps need to concentrate on getting to the bottom of that first and foremost but I don't think you will get any joy.

If you take them to court, I expect it to cost you considerably and get you to the stage where you will still need to apply for reinstatement of service.

The two documents I posted links to are among a myriad of them. The Gas distribution network companies, do know their legal standing and duties.

Thank you for taking the time to send me these documents , afterreading then nothing actually relates to my situation.
I have spoken to Gas safe Technical Department and was told that with the the ECV turned off and caped would be considered as safe for an indefinite period in fact it would be in a much safer than anyone with a meter fitted and appliances and a domestic pipeline that could get damaged or leak gas through fittings within the appliance such as gas fires, gas cookers and boilers .......stopped off was in his opinion a much safer installation as there was only the cap and if fitted correctly there is in fact nothing to fail....so i do not think safety is an issue . Thanks again for your input

 

[Dean Williams]

Given the situation I'd personally get a quote from them for the 2 new supplies and then try and do a deal of reduced cost based on their failings over disconnecting the existing supply.

However given the attitiude and approach the O.P has exibited on this thread I think he'll be lucky to get gas into the property at all.

you may be right lol ........but i'm no quitter

 

[snowhead]

If you want to get gas supplies into your flats anytime soon then you need to be talking to Nat Grid /Cadent, not Plumbing forums, Gassafe, the Ombudsman or any other Internet source.

Trying to prove that Nat. Grid have not followed the Gas Regs, Gas Transportation regs , their own procedures and codes of practice and general H&S procedures will not get you a gas supply.
If fact I suspect it will hold of any Supply installation until your issue has been resolved.

 

[Dean Williams]

If you want to get gas supplies into your flats anytime soon then you need to be talking to Nat Grid /Cadent, not Plumbing forums, Gassafe, the Ombudsman or any other Internet source.

Trying to prove that Nat. Grid have not followed the Gas Regs, Gas Transportation regs , their own procedures and codes of practice and general H&S procedures will not get you a gas supply.
If fact I suspect it will hold of any Supply installation until your issue has been resolved.

i appreciate your concern ... fortunately the property is undergoing a complete re-refurbishment and i am still on the roof fitting the four new dormer windows so don't need gas till Christmas ......so i have time for a little battle with them for my own amusement

 

[Last Plumber]

Thank you for taking the time to send me these documents , afterreading then nothing actually relates to my situation.
I have spoken to Gas safe Technical Department and was told that with the the ECV turned off and caped would be considered as safe for an indefinite period in fact it would be in a much safer than anyone with a meter fitted and appliances and a domestic pipeline that could get damaged or leak gas through fittings within the appliance such as gas fires, gas cookers and boilers ...stopped off was in his opinion a much safer installation as there was only the cap and if fitted correctly there is in fact nothing to fail....so i do not think safety is an issue . Thanks again for your input

I know it is probably safe to leave it like that. I said was that it was not a permanent disconnection.
If you ask Gas Safe whether it is better to leave a live, capped but disused service inside a property, or decommission and remove the service they will, (hopefully), tell you the latter is best.
The documents in part relate to the decommissioning and removal or replacement of underground network pipework for various reasons. Disused iron pipe work is included. Especially if within 30 Meters of an occupied property.
I am only trying to save you time and money.
I wish you luck.

 

[Dean Williams]

I know it is probably safe to leave it like that. I said was that it was not a permanent disconnection.
If you ask Gas Safe whether it is better to leave a live, capped but disused service inside a property, or decommission and remove the service they will, (hopefully), tell you the latter is best.
The documents in part relate to the decommissioning and removal or replacement of underground network pipework for various reasons. Disused iron pipe work is included. Especially if within 30 Meters of an occupied property.
I am only trying to save you time and money.
I wish you luck.

i am grateful for your comments and taking time to post them its a learning curve for us all , i know you said removing would be safer than capping but wouldn't all houses be safer with it disconnected then !!!!

 

[Dean Williams]

i

i am grateful for your comments and taking time to post them its a learning curve for us all , i know you said removing would be safer than capping but wouldn't all houses be safer with it disconnected then !!!!

it's a matter of getting things into prospective