Installer installed undersized radiators

[SafeGasInstall]

Did he do the ch in plastic ?

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Just another thing I am sure your installer is not a member of this forum !

 

[diyer]

Did he do the ch in plastic ?

Some of the pipes were plastic, yes. I think all of the pipes under the floor are. All the visible pipes are copper.

Just another thing I am sure your installer is not a member of this forum !

How come you're sure?

 

[SafeGasInstall]

I am sure none of the regular plumbers will charge £2.6 to putt full ch system !

 

[Rickster123]

How many quotes did you get? Surely 2600 for a full system was considerably lower than most? Were you not concerned at that point?

 

[michael c]

No, I've worked it out and the upstairs are also undersized.

As I said, the installer did no assessments beforehand so no such thing as a heat loss calculation..

He is now saying that upstairs are not undersized and should provide you with heat loss calculations to do this. Ironically the heat loss calcs you say you have done you mentioned using the inner temp as 10 degrees, the calc should be based on the ideal temp as opposed to actual temp. So if you have done it the way you have indicated the size you worked out could also be undersized and yet your calculations still tell you you need larger rads than provided.

 

[lame plumber]

How many hotels did you get? Surely 2600 for a full system was considerably lower than most? Were you not concerned at that point?

he went for the B&B option then changed his mind and camped

 

[diyer]

I am sure none of the regular plumbers will charge £2.6 to putt full ch system !

Maybe not regular but...

How many hotels did you get? Surely 2600 for a full system was considerably lower than most? Were you not concerned at that point?

Your ipad playing up again? It was very competitive though it wasn't the cheapest and it wasn't that far out from the average and he had a lot of good feedback from one of them tradesman website things so I wasn't overly concerned.

 

[lame plumber]

now we understand where you got him from ,compare the monkey .com!

 

[Rickster123]

Maybe not regular but...



Your ipad playing up again? It was very competitive though it wasn't the cheapest and it wasn't that far out from the average and he had a lot of good feedback from one of them tradesman website things so I wasn't overly concerned.

Haha no that was the red wine! Sorry! Far to cheap for a quality install in my opinion. That said there is no excuse for poor quality workmanship. Hope you get it sorted.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

You should tell all the people you know never ever to use plumbers from them trusted web sites ......

 

[plumber0808]

Get someone else to sort the work out, post the job on here.
I think you will have to move on from the problem the installer has given you.
how can you not measure a room and be able to fit a radiator?

by the time you get a independent opinion, go through a solicitor where is it going to go and at what cost, both money and stress.

 

[diyer]

He is now saying that upstairs are not undersized and should provide you with heat loss calculations to do this. Ironically the heat loss calcs you say you have done you mentioned using the inner temp as 10 degrees, the calc should be based on the ideal temp as opposed to actual temp. So if you have done it the way you have indicated the size you worked out could also be undersized and yet your calculations still tell you you need larger rads than provided.

My head hurts.

You should tell all the people you know never ever to use plumbers from them trusted web sites ......

So where do you go if you have no recommendations and have just moved into a new area??

Haha no that was the red wine! Sorry! Far to cheap for a quality install in my opinion. That said there is no excuse for poor quality workmanship. Hope you get it sorted.

Get someone else to sort the work out, post the job on here.
I think you will have to move on from the problem the installer has given you.
how can you not measure a room and be able to fit a radiator?

by the time you get a independent opinion, go through a solicitor where is it going to go and at what cost, both money and stress.

Yeah, it looks like the feedback from you guys is that it's not worth pursuing further. To be honest, that's where I was heading to as at least he has offered to do some of the work without labour charge. If he hadn't I would have definitely gone further with it.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Could have knock on neighbours and ask them , could have gone to the local pub , local shop , lockal plumbing shop could have gone on google and get idea who is your lockal plumber and get few quotes , and get to meet the plumbers in person !
You had it done cheap cheap , will say get some one in to upsize your rads and delete that builders number from your phone

 

[lame plumber]

what do you think he'll do working for no reward, a decent job!

 

[diyer]

For you guys that do it, how much would you roughly charge to change from a single to a double (same size) labour only?

Also, where is the best place to buy (non trade only) cheap rads?

 

[jase158]

Living room: 3.4m x 3.7m x 2.7m Rad installed: 1000mm x 600mm single BTU 3238
Bedroom 1: 3.5 x 3.4 x 2.6 Rad installed: 900mm x 450mm single BTU 2262
Bedroom 2: 3.77 x 2.5 x 2.65 Rad installed: 700mm x 450mm BTU 2007

Living room 7000 btu
bed 1 6000 btu
bed 2 5000 btu
without calculating walls/ windows/ insulation etc.

 

[jase158]

For you guys that do it, how much would you roughly charge to change from a single to a double (same size) labour only?

Also, where is the best place to buy (non trade only) cheap rads?

where are you based?

 

[PlumbBobBob]

put a request here [DLMURL="http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/im-looking-plumber-gas-engineer/"]I'm looking for a Plumber or Gas Engineer[/DLMURL] for someone local to you who can come and advise you

 

[plumber0808]

Get some prices for the work, I would get labour & rads price.
the installer can probably get cheaper rads and offer a guarantee against what he does. I do not give guarantees on anything I have not supplied.
if you have it done again you want it done correctly.
post it up in the forum and somebody will help you out.

 

[Destroyer2813]

I will give you another tip don't try and save money on rads and buy em from screwfix or b&q because you won't save, gonna cost even more in the long run

 

[SafeGasInstall]

If you want to get the rads your self I am sure your buddy will fit them for you !
If you want a profesional do as Steve b say list your location and you will hear from a profesional plumber who will come an survey job for you !

 

[jase158]

I will give you another tip don't try and save money on rads and buy em from screwfix or b&q because you won't save, gonna cost even more in the long run

why do you say that? think this should be a seperate thread but surely made of same metal and come with 10 year guarantee (which merchants dont have). but nearly £30 cheaper per rad, so curious why you dont recommend them!

 

[diyer]

Living room: 3.4m x 3.7m x 2.7m Rad installed: 1000mm x 600mm single BTU 3238
Bedroom 1: 3.5 x 3.4 x 2.6 Rad installed: 900mm x 450mm single BTU 2262
Bedroom 2: 3.77 x 2.5 x 2.65 Rad installed: 700mm x 450mm BTU 2007

Living room 7000 btu
bed 1 6000 btu
bed 2 5000 btu
without calculating walls/ windows/ insulation etc.

Wow those are a lot higher than my calcs are suggesting

Mine is
Living room: 5000 btu
bed 1 3700 btu
bed 2 3000 btu

where are you based?

east midlands

I will give you another tip don't try and save money on rads and buy em from screwfix or b&q because you won't save, gonna cost even more in the long run

Are they really that bad. I was going to get them from Screwfix but they don't have the right size. What's wrong with them?

If you want to get the rads your self I am sure your buddy will fit them for you !
If you want a profesional do as Steve b say list your location and you will hear from a profesional plumber who will come an survey job for you !

The thing is that he has offered t do some of it labour free so I have to take it, don't I?

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Good night

 

[plumber0808]

I wouldn't go there again. He is probably doing this over and over to customers similar to you.
bin him and get the job done correct.

 

[jase158]

my calcs are oversized but better to be over then under

 

[aplombier]

Over sizing radiators can also be just as bad as under sizing as it will affect efficiency and correct temp returns of these new condensing boilers

 

[jase158]

its not just as bad as customer is warm in there own home, which surely is what we are meant to be doing as "heating engineers" however it is still bad as it will cost more then it should to heat the home.
but as someone said before this would be my estimates as i can not see window/ insulation etc.

 

[stevetheplumber]

pay peanuts get monkeys your wasting your time pursuing this legally after a year better to spend the extra for some bigger rads and treat it as one of lifes little lessons always get 3 or 4 quotes to get some idea of what the right price for a job is also always get something in writting as to what your getting for the money and what it will do once fitted

 

[Bronze_tap]

he went for the B&B option then changed his mind and camped

For the first time in his life...
In the 5 pounds Argos single season sleeping bag in the current Lake District conditions (-6C, 35mph), 700m above see level on the eastern side of Skaffel Pike

Anyway, I assume that any serious user calling himself diyer should know how to do compression/threaded joints.
Have a look on the youtube, get a double convector rad(s), and have a go.
Best with good competent plumber for the first time.
And keep in mind, that plastics doesn't like high flow temperatures for long time... And the underfloor leaks may go undetected for a while...

 

[DirksPlumbing]

Over sizing radiators can also be just as bad as under sizing as it will affect efficiency and correct temp returns of these new condensing boilers

@Chris: You put a like on this comment? Oversizing allows you to lower the flow temperature and therefore minimising heat losses and maximising the gains from the latent heat.

Could someone explain to me the negative effects to expect (except customer spending more on the radiators)? As long as the oversizing is done equally I could not see negative effects at all.

 

[Gray0689]

@Chris: You put a like on this comment? Oversizing allows you to lower the flow temperature and therefore minimising heat losses and maximising the gains from the latent heat.

Could someone explain to me the negative effects to expect (except customer spending more on the radiators)? As long as the oversizing is done equally I could not see negative effects at all.

Well for one building control can and so fail new houses as not energy efficient

 

[aplombier]

It's all about energy efficiency at the boiler so it will condense efficiently and use less gas or use it better thus saving the planet . the flow and returns at the boiler must only have 10c temp difference so if the rads are too big for the boiler then the return to the boiler will be too cold and then the boiler won't condense . Which means you might as well not fit condensing boiler, as stated building regs can now make you rip it all out if they get involved. I'm not the best explainer so hope this is good enough. If you've done level3 about modern system design this should have been taught at that stage.

 

[tamz]

It's all about energy efficiency at the boiler so it will condense efficiently and use less gas or use it better thus saving the planet . the flow and returns at the boiler must only have 20ºc temp difference so if the rads are too big for the boiler then the return to the boiler will be too cold and then the boiler won't condense . Which means you might as well not fit condensing boiler, as stated building regs can now make you rip it all out if they get involved. I'm not the best explainer so hope this is good enough. If you've done level3 about modern system design this should have been taught at that stage.

You are getting things a bit back to front here.

I've also corrected a bit for you