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Discuss Installer installed undersized radiators in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net

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diyer

Hi,
I had a new central heating system fitted last year and always thought it was cold but because I didn't really use it, as the property was being renovated at the time, I didn't think much of it.

I've finally got round to measuring the temps this year and it's freezing! The temps are reaching a max of 12C-13C with the heating on. I found out about undersized rads and worked out the required BTUs from online BTU calculators and found out that the rads are nearly all undersized by a fair bit.

Is there anything I can do legally being that it has been over a year since the installation?

Thanks for any advice.
 
Hi diyer and welcome. Can you give us some rad sizes and room sizes as examples to go on?
 
Hi diyer and welcome. Can you give us some rad sizes and room sizes as examples to go on?

Yep, just measured them!

Living room: 3.4m x 3.7m x 2.7m Rad installed: 1000mm x 600mm single BTU 3238
Bedroom 1: 3.5 x 3.4 x 2.6 Rad installed: 900mm x 450mm single BTU 2262
Bedroom 2: 3.77 x 2.5 x 2.65 Rad installed: 700mm x 450mm BTU 2007
 
What are the design perimeter that you have used ? room temp, outside temp, mean water temp. Do you know what the installer used ? if not write to them & ask also set out what you have found & ask them to comment / sort out, don't threaten anything at the moment.

P.S. What is the building construction ?
 
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I would have go for living room K2 ( double panel double convector )
bedrooms P+ ( double panel single convector )

about ligal bit you need to speak to solicitor I think
 
I would have go for living room K2 ( double panel double convector )
bedrooms P+ ( double panel single convector )

about ligal bit you need to speak to solicitor I think
Not being funny but how the hell can you say that ??? whats the building construction, whats the design temps, here we go again guessing at rad sizes again this is not very helpful to the industry !!!!!!!!
 
What are the design perimeter that you have used ? room temp, outside temp, mean water temp. Do you know what the installer used ? if not write to them & ask also set out what you have found & ask them to comment / sort out, don't threaten anything at the moment.

P.S. What is the building construction ?

Not sure what you mean by design perimeter.
When I did the measurements, outside temp was 0C, inside was 10C and inside with rads on for a few hours was 12C.
The installer didn't do any calcs like that.

I've already spoken to the installer and it was only then that he came and measured the rooms and the rads. He came back and admitted that the downstairs (2 x Living room) are undersized and he'll change them for £45 each but that he reckons the upstairs (bedrooms) are fine and not willing to do anything (unless I pay full price obviously).

Construction is brick (terrace)
 
Not being funny but how the hell can you say that ??? whats the building construction, whats the design temps, here we go again guessing at rad sizes again this is not very helpful to the industry !!!!!!!!

He can say it as they are undersized by some way
 
Not being funny but how the hell can you say that ??? whats the building construction, whats the design temps, here we go again guessing at rad sizes again this is not very helpful to the industry !!!!!!!!
This is referring to the bit where op is in need of more heat as he is saying that his house is not getting up to temperature !
 
Not being funny but how the hell can you say that ??? whats the building construction, whats the design temps, here we go again guessing at rad sizes again this is not very helpful to the industry !!!!!!!!
If his house is cold and rads already installed will not do the job , easiest thing will be to keep them same size and just fit K2 and P+ and remove the K1 . Just giving a suggestin to op . And why is this getting your blood boiling ?????
 
I am not sure tbh !! Who has design the ch system ? who has calculated/ sized boiler and rads ? Did you have a architect or builder in charge for the job or was it all left to the plumber ?
 
I am not sure tbh !! Who has design the ch system ? who has calculated/ sized boiler and rads ? Did you have a architect or builder in charge for the job or was it all left to the plumber ?

It wasn't 'designed'. Just the gas guy having a look at the rooms then coming back a few days later with the rads. He didn't even measure the rooms!
 
Yeah i admit these are undersized, it was my mistake but i want you to pay me for putting right my mistake ...yeah right ..
 
It wasn't 'designed'. Just the gas guy having a look at the rooms then coming back a few days later with the rads. He didn't even measure the rooms!

And you thought that was the correct way and didnt question it??
 
I doubt you will get far with it to be honest. Better just to se the cash on larger rads. And don't use the original guy again!

What does that bit in bold mean?

Also, surely after spending a large sum of money on central heating that doesn't heat, i.e. not fit for purpose, there must be some comeback?
 
Not sure what you mean by design perimeter.
When I did the measurements, outside temp was 0C, inside was 10C and inside with rads on for a few hours was 12C.
The installer didn't do any calcs like that.

I've already spoken to the installer and it was only then that he came and measured the rooms and the rads. He came back and admitted that the downstairs (2 x Living room) are undersized and he'll change them for £45 each but that he reckons the upstairs (bedrooms) are fine and not willing to do anything (unless I pay full price obviously).

Construction is brick (terrace)
Sorry, am I missing something here, you paid to have new radiators installed to heat the rooms & now they don't he is asking you to pay for bigger ones. ??? Why would you even consider this !

To be able to select a rad to heat a space you need to set some perimeter such as out side temp normally -3, inside normally 21 or 22 & what the average water temp is going to be i.e. what water temp you are going to set the boiler to (what is yours set to ? ) old days 76.5 now 60 or lower. You also need to work out how quickly the heat will be lost from the rooms so you need the know how big there are & windows doors as well as their construction (u values).

Was this guy cheap ?? if yes you now know why. Was he recommended or long established ??? if no you now know for next time.
 
What does that bit in bold mean?

Also, surely after spending a large sum of money on central heating that doesn't heat, i.e. not fit for purpose, there must be some comeback?

Sorry my iPad had one of its helpful moments there it should read : better to just spend the cash on larger rads. What paperwork did you have? Written quote with rad sizes? Written invoice and receipt for payment made? What guarantee did you get?
 
You can get an approximate idea of the output your rooms need using this application here:

Radcalcs radiator btu sizing site

You can look up the output of your existing rads from the manufacturers website.

Sometimes it's possible to upgrade from singles to doubles etc.

Always better to go for oversize than undersize radiators (says me shivering in my living room because I made do with a left over radiator cos I was too tight to part with cash for a bigger new one :tounge_smile: )
 
Yeah i admit these are undersized, it was my mistake but i want you to pay me for putting right my mistake ...yeah right ..

Solicitors make similar mistakes all the time and charge their customers again to put rings right.
 
Yeah i admit these are undersized, it was my mistake but i want you to pay me for putting right my mistake ...yeah right ..

I can just about understand the charge £45 for the downstairs rads, where he admits the mistake, as that is just the upgrade cost of a single to a double. But he's saying the upstairs are fine as they are and have to pay full price if i want to go from single to double.

And you thought that was the correct way and didnt question it??

I've never had CH installed before and didn't know better. The guy was Gas Safe so there is a bit more added trust.

Where about are you ?

Why? Not sure I want to say in case the guy is on these forums...
 
I think you be better to get a decent plumber in to check it all out as your installer sounds a muppet
And gas safe only means he is legal to work on gas nothing else
 
I understand , but if he was here he would have or he will click on straight away !!!
I don't understand how is he going to change a 1000/600 k1 to a 1000/600 k2 for a total of £45 ????
 
safe gas is only asking your location so we can recommend a forum member to you to price up upgrades or give a second opinion. In this case without doing the calcs it may be that your upstairs rads are adequate but are losing excessive heat to downstairs rooms. I would ask to see a break down of the guys heat loss calculations for each room to show you exactly what rads you should have.
On principle i wouldn't want to pay more as you paid and installed trust in his professional opinion. However, it is worth considering it would be a lengthy and difficult process to take the guy through the courts for larger rads.
I would advise getting a second recommended engineer to inspect your system, however, as if he has undersized the rads i would be consious over were else he has cut corners. Remeber an installation is only as good as the installer.
 
How much were you charged and what boiler did he fit you ?

About £2.5k and I chose the ideal logic+

Sorry, am I missing something here, you paid to have new radiators installed to heat the rooms & now they don't he is asking you to pay for bigger ones. ??? Why would you even consider this !

To be able to select a rad to heat a space you need to set some perimeter such as out side temp normally -3, inside normally 21 or 22 & what the average water temp is going to be i.e. what water temp you are going to set the boiler to (what is yours set to ? ) old days 76.5 now 60 or lower. You also need to work out how quickly the heat will be lost from the rooms so you need the know how big there are & windows doors as well as their construction (u values).

Was this guy cheap ?? if yes you now know why. Was he recommended or long established ??? if no you now know for next time.

See post #26 for the reasoning regarding downstairs rads. I don't want to accept the upstairs rooms rads, that's why I'm on here asking for advice.

The guy was competitive and relatively established I think but still Gas Safe. Wasn't recommended though as I was new to the area.

Sorry my iPad had one of its helpful moments there it should read : better to just spend the cash on larger rads. What paperwork did you have? Written quote with rad sizes? Written invoice and receipt for payment made? What guarantee did you get?

I think the only quote I had was by text. I do have a written invoice but it doesn't show the rad sizes and paid by cheque. There was a one year guarantee which has expired.
 
Honestly I believe you will get nowhere now to long a time frame
As said if you say your area there may be a forum member that could sort it out for you
 
I understand , but if he was here he would have or he will click on straight away !!!
I don't understand how is he going to change a 1000/600 k1 to a 1000/600 k2 for a total of £45 ????

He's going to do it without charging me labour. Only for downstairs, not upstairs.
 
around half of what youd have to pay me, so in my opinion you didnt pay enough to get a decent job done! monkeys and peanuts come to mind. Best to put the other 2.5k towards finishing the job properly and forget the legal battle you canyt afford in the long term.
 
safe gas is only asking your location so we can recommend a forum member to you to price up upgrades or give a second opinion. In this case without doing the calcs it may be that your upstairs rads are adequate but are losing excessive heat to downstairs rooms. I would ask to see a break down of the guys heat loss calculations for each room to show you exactly what rads you should have.
On principle i wouldn't want to pay more as you paid and installed trust in his professional opinion. However, it is worth considering it would be a lengthy and difficult process to take the guy through the courts for larger rads.
I would advise getting a second recommended engineer to inspect your system, however, as if he has undersized the rads i would be consious over were else he has cut corners. Remeber an installation is only as good as the installer.

No, I've worked it out and the upstairs are also undersized.

As I said, the installer did no assessments beforehand so no such thing as a heat loss calculation..
 
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