Indirect system

[ste b]

Hi good to be back for tips and advice from the forum,having done a few jobs since completing my c and g course i have not yet come accross working with indirect system,everyone i been to had combi"s and the work has been easy, i know what i about to ask is easy to you guys here but i am just making sure before i do the work,simple washbasin and toilet installation like for like,but having not come accross this type of common house-hold system i just need a little help,i pretty sure i dont have to drain all the cylinder of water to change the hot water taps,my question is about which valves to turn off,am i right in saying turn off the gate valve for the hot water which is located near to the vessel then run the hot water tap till it stops running,also do i have have to turn off the iso valve located in the attic or does that not matter,also do i need to tie up ball cock in loft for cold water draining to change the cw taps and wc,or should i just turn off the gate valve/iso valve located under the cistern.......i know its sounds amatuerish but i never touched this system and to be honest college just showed us how to plumb in a vessel,lol. cheers guys any info appreciated.......

 

[SimonJohns]

For safety and being stuck with a stuck gate valve when you finish I would isolate cold water mains and run hot taps until they stop.

You will end up with a empty cold water storage cistern. And you won't have to tie up ball valve
The Hws cylinder will still be full but this won't come out of the taps

If you going to do an immersion change you will need to drain a small amount of water from the cylinder

Best of luck. Photos when you finish please.

Btw. Check the taps you buy are suitable for a low pressure installation

 

[Best]

Usually the feeds from the cold tank will have valves on them. Just turn them off & run taps till water stops. If they are gate valves, be gentle with them & don't turn off very tight, but they often need renewed - so keep spare ones.
You may have air locks. Only other way, is to bung the pipes in the inside of tank.

Edit :- ... Unless, as Simonjohns has just said, you drain the entire cold tank.

 

[Simon F]

are you saying that hot and cold are both from the cwsc or just the hot water feed?

 

[SimonJohns]

It's possible that the cold is fed from the same cistern. But it is referred to as a cold water cistern

To check if the cold taps are fed from it. Put you finder over a cold tap. And turn on. If you get wet. It's mains fed. If you don't. Its cistern fed.

 

[ste b]

Cheers,tell you what i will do before and after pics,always take pics for future ref,so thats no probs..........

 

[ste b]

Just getting back to my question just to be sure,simon johns,when you say isolate cw mains,do you mean the tap under-neath sink unit where it enters the building or isolate in loft space,i sure there is 100+ litres in the cw storage cistern,lot of water to waste.....i thought there would have been iso valves/gate valves on the hot and cold distribution pipes,am i wrong?.....other than that i gona do exactly as you say,mains off and run taps untill they stop,.....re-plaement taps are ok thanks for that info,

 

[southcoastboile]

easyest thing would be to iscolate via ballofix valves on existing pipework if there are any. If not you can use the gate valve that is normaly fitted to iscolate the hot water side, it will be on the cold feed to the cylinder, it is always the pipe that is closest to the bottom of the cylinder so follow it back untill you see the gate valve. The cold may be fed from tank in which case you will need to drain tank as simon has said and yes turn mains off into house. You could be lucky and it may be mains fed. There may be a risk of gate valve sticking if you do it my way but you should be ok. best thing is to look up system drawings on google so you actuly understand it as if you dont and you get a problem you will not no what to iscolate. Hope this helps and good luck

 

[SimonJohns]

The only reason why I say to isolate the mains and waste the water is purely because of ;
Sticking gate valves
Shearing valves
Leaking valve
Slight pass on valve


But most of all. Less risk.

If you read back through all the posts you will see. Be careful of sticking. Leaking. Weeping etc

This way. The only valve you risk damaging is the mcw stop valve.

 

[southcoastboile]

agreed

 

[ste b]

Ok guys i not taking any chances,isolate mains feed and drain the storage,just out of coincidense,approx how long will it take to drain and re-fill,definatly quicker than going out new gate valves etc etc,im sure........thanks again,appreciated..........sb

 

[SimonJohns]

take about 20min to empty cwsc
take a few mins to refill, depending on mcw flow and pressure

 

[Resolute]

Or bung the tank?!

 

[SimonJohns]

Or bung the tank?!

good call

 

[heliotrope]

take about 20min to empty cwsc
take a few mins to refill

And how many hours chasing air locks?:shocked:

Go with Resolute's post:wink:

 

[ste b]

Lol,ok what does bunging tank en-tale,i never done this but have heard it can be done,what do you actually bung tank with?

 

[jtsplumbing]

Sorry but you did say that you have done a C&G course in plumbing, and they did-not teach you about a basic plumbing system, and how to replace taps ect . I think if you paid for this course you need to ask for a refund, :angry_smile:

 

[Resolute]

To bung the tank you need to get a bung set (or improvise) and then just stick the correct size bung into the relevant draw offs in the bottom of the CWSC. Check no water flows through the outlets and away you go.

 

[ste b]

i know jts,the teachers were a waste of space,didnt want to answer any questions,to be honest i not sure if they were plumbers like they said,they spoke about it but we didnt actually learn things such as draining systems for tap replacement etc etc,and bunging systems was"nt mentioned,with taps we just took one apart to identify rubber etc etc..................one lad on the course had leaks everywhere,the teachers could not fix,i had too do it lol,and he still passed the course,he even managed to tear all the thread on top of storage tank which caused it to leak,the course was a joke to be honest,and as i have said before a lot of the work i done has been with combi"s so bathroom suites are no trouble,this is the first job with in direct system,and its been 4 yrs since college.....cheers

 

[jtsplumbing]

I can-not believe that you have been doing this for 4 years and not come accross a basic system, if I were you I would think about trying to spend at least one day a week with some one who can show you how to do things, How have you been earning a living if you do-not understand the basic`s, Are you not worried about the damage you could cause ?? This is the sort of thing you should have cover`d in the first couple of weeks. What collage did you go to ? are they still training people ? if so they need to be reported!! Did you have to pay ?

 

[scotty plumber]

I went to college for 3years during my apprenticeship and i admit to learning very little at college! It was a waste of time for myself and i can kind of see his point ( a little ) they did not teach me any very basic stuff like changing washers etc but more thing's like bylaw's and distances between pipe clip's etc and as a 16 year old it was in one ear and straight out the other!

 

[philtheflush]

and thats why this forum is important you learn a great deal if you look at all the problems people have and seeethe solutions that are given in time you tend to remeber when out on jobs

 

[jtsplumbing]

So whats the point of these collage`s if they are not teaching you guys , at least the basic`s of plumbing B4 you go out into the world.

 

[scotty plumber]

I learn't all my basic knowledge via my journeyman and just learning myself, i would not thank my old college for any of it!

 

[Best]

I knew of a lecturer who had building qualifications longer than your arm. He built his own house & later sold it. The entire house was a DIY disaster, except the kitchen units, which were good.
The storage tank had a very large part of it like a tissue paper - obviously melted with a blow lamp, & had to be thrown out. Almost all the rustic bricks on the chimney were upside down.
If they don't know these basics, they shouldn't be teaching.

 

[philtheflush]

i also think that if you go to college to keep your parents happy you dont learn but if you go because you want to then its up to you listen and take in what they tell you. i havnt done an apprentiship so to compensate for that i come on hear and observe and ask questions

 

[ste b]

Ok jts,let me explain,went to college in bolton,after working in the caravan industry for 10 yrs i though it was time for a change, (how wrong was i) so i decided at the young age of 30 to do my c and g level 2 and progress onto my level 3,i did 3 nights a week for 1 year and it was"nt easy,lol.......when i finished the course in 2009 i was hoping to progress onto level 3 but i just could not afford to pack in work unless someone would take me on to get some real experience,but there is no-one round this area willing to do that,so i rang numerous plumbers to see if i could tag along and help out where ever i could in return learn as much as i could,but again with no luck,so since 2009 when i finished college i am still in the caravan industry working for a well establised firm.Since then i have done numerous little jobs,guttering,loadsa taps and outside taps,few rads changes and about six bathroom suites inc tiling,all have been done for friends and family and everyone has had combi"s believe it or not,lol,its not like i been avoiding indirect system i just not come accross one outside of college and was just re-capping and making sure before i took the job on,and i can say i had one leak on all the jobs i done and that was on a bath which the owner got into as soon as i left the property even though i said toleave until the sealer around the bath had set,no pipe leaks to date touch wood,trust me if i could get a plumber to let me out with him at weekends i would,thats why i am here lol...................cheers...

 

[ste b]

Back again lol,when at college we plumbed in a vessel, from mains to cwsc then to the vessel then drained after making sure we had no leaks,we never actually fitted the pipework from this cwsc to the other cold water out-lets,thats were i was getting confused lol,having done a little research and talked on here about draining the cwsc i am a lot clearer on the system and all has come back to me now lol,the thing what was confusing me was why you have to drain the cwsc i just pre-sumed it was normal practice to fit a service valve or stopcock near to the cwsc on the pipework to all upstairs cw outlets so you dont need to drain all the cwsc,obviously i was wrong lol............i got diagram here showing a service valve near to cwsc,i do have adiagram here showing a service valve lol so maybe i will getlucky and the last plumber fitted one too lol...........

 

[SimonJohns]

Back again lol,when at college we plumbed in a vessel, from mains to cwsc then to the vessel then drained after making sure we had no leaks,we never actually fitted the pipework from this cwsc to the other cold water out-lets,thats were i was getting confused lol,having done a little research and talked on here about draining the cwsc i am a lot clearer on the system and all has come back to me now lol,the thing what was confusing me was why you have to drain the cwsc i just pre-sumed it was normal practice to fit a service valve or stopcock near to the cwsc on the pipework to all upstairs cw outlets so you dont need to drain all the cwsc,obviously i was wrong lol............i got diagram here showing a service valve near to cwsc,i do have adiagram here showing a service valve lol so maybe i will getlucky and the last plumber fitted one too lol...........

i wasnt sayin that there will not be a service valve fitted, but it is usually a gate valve and they stick and shear off, when this happens its a pig of a job to replace
you will most prob see a service valve

 

[ste b]

ok thanks,hope we not got off on the wrong footmate,i know some replys can be taken in the wrong way in these forums.............i was"nt having a go by any means.......thanks for replying,hope you got a bit of an idea where i coming from now......as i have...appreciated.....

 

[philtheflush]

im the same as you ste b but i gave up work its hard out there but the more you do the more you learn gravity systems are a pain as ive had a few and had air locks because of draining down but if your not sure turn the job down unless you explain to the customers the probs of draining down and see if they still want you to do it cover your tracks in other words good luck anyway i still love the job though

 

[ste b]

Yeah i allready told the guy,hes a good friend so i have explained to him the probs that may arise,he is fine with it,there are drain valves on the hot and cold feeds under-neath the basin but i not sure if they are just drain valves,should they be able to turn off feed as well,i asked him and he said the water does not stop when turned in,will know more friday when i pay a visit.......cheers....

 

[jtsplumbing]

I can-not see how some of you younger guys have problems understanding basic systems ! are you only taught about combis ? it seams if you have more than 4 pipes its beyond what you know, if you can-not work out a basic system, you need more training, or think about changing your job.!! :13:

 

[SimonJohns]

I can-not see how some of you younger guys have problems understanding basic systems ! are you only taught about combis ? it seams if you have more than 4 pipes its beyond what you know, if you can-not work out a basic system, you need more training, or think about changing your job.!! :13:

Don't tar us all with the same brush

 

[jtsplumbing]

Sorry Simon J , but honestley some of the questions thes guys need to ask about the most basic plumbing, makes you wounder why they chose to do plumbing in the first place, and how they managed to get C&G quals, are these people what the plumbing industry has to look forward to ?? Maybe its not their fault ! but their is somthing wrong with the system when these guys are let out of collage with-out the basic knowlage they need to build on.