Gas work for family

[fuzzy]

another gas reg thats not so clear why dont they make the regs in plain eassy to understand english . I would agree in the fact if you are not gas safe registered how can your work be checked and registered the idea of being gas safe registered is to proove your compitent in the work place as they can check up any of your work at anytime .if its not registered it can be checked.just my view.come on gas safe make the regs easier to read.

ant

gas safe dont write the regs????? its through the HSE, maybe thats why people on here get confused

 

[fuzzy]

if you did gas work for a charity for no charge ,then according to your thinking fuzzy you dont need to be gsr,
i cant see it

dont get hung up on the "no charge" as i keep saying that is how i put it for ease of understanding, the regs refer to work as an employer or self employed you must be gas safe registered. therefore if you are not employed but carrying out gas work then theres no issue. sorry to keep putting you all right on this. If anyone else understands the regs correctly like me feel free to chip in

 

[oldplumber]

regs 2,1 defines work, so if you arent registered whether or not you are paid you are working on gas appliances etc, which is therefore illegal, you have to look at more than one of the regs to understand them, its called multi tasking, something some of are unable to do it would seem. If you look at some of the past prosecutions people have done good work and still been hit by the HSE for not being registered, but they got reported and hit with the big stick.

 

[tamz]

Hopefully to put this one to bed.

From The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998

From Reg 2

“work” in relation to a gas fitting includes any of the following activities carried out by any person, whether an employee or not, that is to say -
(a) installing or re-connecting the fitting;
(b) maintaining, servicing, permanently adjusting, disconnecting, repairing, altering or renewing the fitting or purging it of air or gas;
(c) where the fitting is not readily movable, changing its position; and
(d) removing the fitting.
but the expression does not include the connection or disconnection of a bayonet fitting or other self-sealing connector.

The guidance note

22 For the purposes of these Regulations, ‘work’ includes do-it-yourself activities, work undertaken as a favour for friends and relatives, and work for which there is no expectation of reward or gain, eg voluntary activity for charities. This means that anyone carrying out such work must have the necessary competence, as required by regulation 3(1). However, membership of an HSE approved class of persons (under regulation 3(3)) is required only by businesses carrying out gas fitting work (see paragraphs 43-45).

So what does it say in reg 3

(1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so.
(2) The employer of any person carrying out such work for that employer, every other employer and self-employed person who has control to any extent of such work and every employer and self-employed person who has required such work to be carried out at any place of work under his control shall ensure that paragraph (1) above is complied with in relation to such work.
(3) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraphs (1) and (2) above and subject to paragraph (4) below, no employer shall allow any of his employees to carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or service pipework and no self-employed person shall carry out any such work, unless the employer or self-employed person, as the case may be, is a member of a class of persons approved for the time being by the Health and Safety Executive for the purposes of this paragraph.


So what does that mean? Look to the guidance notes and it states


43 All gas installation businesses, including self-employed gas installers, are (subject to the limited exceptions in regulation 3(4)) required to be in membership of a ‘class of persons’ approved by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE), whether they carry out such work as their main or part activity. Gas fitters who are employed by a member of an approved ‘class of persons’, but who do separate work on their own behalf, need to be in membership of such class of persons, eg CORGI-registered, in their own right.


That bit covers employed or self employed and also means anyone employed but doing homers (paid) needs there own registration.



44 At the time of publication of this ACOP/guidance, the only body with such approval is CORGI Gas Registration (although other organisations may apply to HSE for consideration to act as a registration body if they so wish). CORGI’s address is 1 Elmwood, Chineham Business Park, Crockford Lane, Basingstoke, Hants RG24 8WG (tel: 0800 915 0480).


This bit means the HSE need to update their stuff but it now means Gas Safe Register.



[FONT=&quot]45 Anyone who does work on a gas fitting or gas storage vessel must be competent to do so, whether or not they are required to be a member of an approved class of persons. Therefore, do-it-yourself installers and those performing favours for friends and relatives all need to have the required competence. The level and range of competence should match the full extent of work done, but needs only to be sufficient for and relevant to that work. Employers of gas fitting operatives are also required under regulation 3(2) to ensure that their employees have the required competence for the work undertaken; in addition to ensuring they are properly experienced and trained (see paragraph 47), this involves ongoing monitoring of performance standards, as necessary
[/FONT]
And finally we get to the bit we want with the key word being competence.
Therefore anyone who is competent, (having the required ACS is the easiest accepted way to prove it (other ways of proving competence would need to be proved in a Court of Law)) who carries out favours for friends, relatives or voluntary stuff does not require to be Gas Safe Registered.

Every gas operative should be familiar with this document

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l56.pdf
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[REDSAW]

good work tamz, thanks for the effort.

 

[tamz]

Your welcome

 

[fuzzy]

Cheers Tamz, you put it over very well, maybe people will now believe me?

 

[buckley plumb]

i can see what you are saying whats stopping engineers doing forigners at the wk end and classing it as no financial gain if there is no paper trail.

ant

 

[GreenArmy]

Nice one Tamz......that's this thread put to bed then........or is it?

 

[fuzzy]

i can see what you are saying whats stopping engineers doing forigners at the wk end and classing it as no financial gain if there is no paper trail.

ant

Is it worth the risk? If your already ACS why not just register? On the other hand, i know plenty that do what you say, they could get caught though, nobody will believe that its always for family and/or freinds

 

[kirkgas]

Tamz the man!!!!!!!!!!

close the topic

 

[fuzzy]

so why do the hse keep taking people to court who have previously passed their acs and been corgi/gas safe registered and prosecuted them for illegal works, it must be because they arent competant in the eyes of the law, simple really and therefore fuzz your understanding of the regs cannt be quite right can it!!

Will you now accept i was right?

 

[GreenArmy]

Will you now accept i was right?

I doubt it ;-)

 

[fuzzy]

I doubt it ;-)

i took alot of stick on this, im going all out for full agreement now!

 

[oldplumber]

tamz explained it beautifully, and not trying to be a wise bum, dont forget to get insurnance cover if your working for friends and family for free, just in case it goes wrong through no fault of your doing and you need backup. Remember though that you wont get cover if you dont register with gas safe. It would seem the insurers work under different rules to HSE, slippery sods

 

[tamz]

Insurance is a big one although it is not compulsory.

If you burn your mates house down i'm sure you will both have a laugh about it in the pub later..................NOT

Your ex friend will be on to claims direct but as long as you are living with your mother and your car is on HP you will be fine

Buckley

It happens and no amount of regulation or legislation will stop it. It is part if what is called "the black economy".

 

[fuzzy]

tamz explained it beautifully, and not trying to be a wise bum, dont forget to get insurnance cover if your working for friends and family for free, just in case it goes wrong through no fault of your doing and you need backup. Remember though that you wont get cover if you dont register with gas safe. It would seem the insurers work under different rules to HSE, slippery sods

so you admit i was right?

 

[Reg Man]

What a long thread: If you are employed to do gas work you have to be registered. If you do it for yourself or clearly for a friend or relative as a favour for no financial gain, you don't. In any event you have to be competent to carry out gas work. This is to comply with Gas regs. Additionally; boilers are covered under building regulations (Part L energy efficiency). If you fit a boiler you are required to register this work through building control. If you are registered with a competent person scheme (which includes Gas Safe Register, CORGI, APHCA) you can notify the works through the approved scheme. In any event Manufacturer's will need to be satisfied the appliance has been installed correctly and the benchmark book has been completed.

 

[fuzzy]

What a long thread: If you are employed to do gas work you have to be registered. If you do it for yourself or clearly for a friend or relative as a favour for no financial gain, you don't. In any event you have to be competent to carry out gas work. This is to comply with Gas regs. Additionally; boilers are covered under building regulations (Part L energy efficiency). If you fit a boiler you are required to register this work through building control. If you are registered with a competent person scheme (which includes Gas Safe Register, CORGI, APHCA) you can notify the works through the approved scheme. In any event Manufacturer's will need to be satisfied the appliance has been installed correctly and the benchmark book has been completed.

i know its a long thread but ive been debating this on my own for most of it. Many posted that i was wrong and have now gone missing

 

[Reg Man]

I think your right on the mark. There's no flexibitlity round the to be registered or not to be registered issue. The HSE view DIY gas work, as in your own property, you may get away with your mum, dad or sibilings, but anything else your on chancing it. The HSE look at personal gain, so if your mates made you a cup of tea on the boiler job, that could be construde as personal gain. A bit exagrarated. You definately won't get a away with fittings the boiler for free and charging for the wet work. Its know big deal to be registered any away, feel that GS register do very little for same money as CORGI, service is poor, magazine poor, tech line poor, web site poor, getting through to anyone poor. At least we all get left alone.

 

[fuzzy]

cheers reg man, not many have retured to say they now accept i was right???

 

[oldplumber]

rightmaybe in what you feel, but maybe not in the eyes of a judge, I wouldnt want to be the one testing your interpretation of the regs/law, but rather sad going on about it, didnt they let you join the playgroung football team in the past. time to agree to disagree this one and let everyone go their own way now isnt it

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

rightmaybe in what you feel, but maybe not in the eyes of a judge, I wouldnt want to be the one testing your interpretation of the regs/law, but rather sad going on about it, didnt they let you join the playgroung football team in the past. time to agree to disagree this one and let everyone go their own way now isnt it

i agree as i said from the beginning this is not how a court would interoperate the regs

 

[tamz]

The regs are quite clear if you read them with the accompanying notes. They are not that hard to interpret and any judges in any courts reading them would interpret them the same way following the guidance notes.

But.......They really should write things in plain English and avoid confusion.

Something like
Right. If you're fitting gas you need a ticket. If you work for someone it is on his ticket.
Work for your ma is ok, but if she makes you a T bone for the dinner that might be thought of as payment (in kind). Tell her you'll have mince as usual

 

[fuzzy]

rightmaybe in what you feel, but maybe not in the eyes of a judge, I wouldnt want to be the one testing your interpretation of the regs/law, but rather sad going on about it, didnt they let you join the playgroung football team in the past. time to agree to disagree this one and let everyone go their own way now isnt it

That sounds like a "i know im wrong so can we stop talking bout it, im running out of excuses and am now clutching at straws". "It must be because he was bad at football" , thats how you make your case, lol
Even with the official interpretation of the regs in front of you you deny it. "oh let a judge sort it out" classic. If your relying on a judge every time you dont understand a reg it must be hard to go about your work

 

[oldplumber]

Rules are open to interpretation and they are abused regularly which leads to the problems we have. Some on this forum are always bemoaning the fact you have to be registered with a ruling body and others object to having to retake exams to continue working. My own opinion is that it should be compulsory to be registered and insured to protect both tthe public who we work for and protect the industry in general from those who wish to take short cuts and avoid having to pay out in order to carry out work in the gas sector. Alot of thingscould be improved if gas products were only available to those proven to be able to do the work , which sadly wont happen unless there is in the future some horrendous accident leading to a large death toll then forcing to government to reconsider its options. As as to the rights and wrongs of the rules as they stand, they are opern to interpretation as they stand and like I said you may be right as they are but if something goes wrong badly then they wil probably be scrutinised and you may well find yourself in the firing line. Hence why Iwouldnt take the risk and am registered by gas safe and wouldnt have it anyother way, end of rant now and no sarcasm as it doesnt really work here, especially as one sees the damage that can occur thats currently being seen in the news

 

[Reg Man]

There's a slight clue in my user name as to why I think , I ,know what I am talking about. Its got nothing to do with play ground football.