Freezing 3yr old son's bedroom HELP!

[doitmyself]

You dont tap trv,s from the side. Specially not sharply, you tap them on the pin! Get your facts right before giving advise.

Sorry to disagree with you, but I have seen advice on several forums, from obviously experienced contributors, advising people to tap the side of the TRV body to loosen the plunger. Tapping on the pin will only encourage the plunger to stick further into the seat and may damage the pin.

 

[Dotty]

Sorry to disagree with you, but I have seen advice on several forums, from obviously experienced contributors, advising people to tap the side of the TRV body to loosen the plunger. Tapping on the pin will only encourage the plunger to stick further into the seat and may damage the pin.

So what you're saying is that really you haven't got a clue but because someone else on another forum said it's so makes it true.

Take a good hard look at Leo's Trusted Advisor badge. Remember your name and consider your own inexperience.

 

[Leo21]

Sorry to disagree with you, but I have seen advice on several forums, from obviously experienced contributors, advising people to tap the side of the TRV body to loosen the plunger. Tapping on the pin will only encourage the plunger to stick further into the seat and may damage the pin.

Now you see the difference here is, I'm qualified with over twenty years experience. I'm not parroting someone else's posts pretending I know what I'm talking about.
I've been doing them from the top since the 80,s with minimum failures. I find the side method takes more force.
And I'll ask again, any qualifications or experience to back your aparantly knowledgable posts up?

 

[doitmyself]

Not sure what you mean by built-in balancer. but l said LS valves are fully open as I took the cap off and unwound them using 6mm alan key to their furthest open position.

The RAS-C2 head can be used with two different bodies. The RA-N body has a ring numbered 1 to N and the flo through the valve can be adjusted by setting to the appropriate number. By default the valve is set to N. If your LS valve is adjusted using an allen key then it is probably a Danfoss valve. The Danfoss recommended adjustment range is ¼ to 4 turns open. If you want to have another go at balancing, start with all LS valves ½ turn open.

 

[Dotty]

You are barking up the wrong tree. And I notice that the majority of that is copied directly from the Danfoss MI's.

What experience do you actually have?

Because I will not have inaccurate advice given on this forum .

 

[doitmyself]

I'm qualified with over twenty years experience.

I see you are GS registered and a PA member - that's all I know about you.

I've been doing them from the top since the 80,s with minimum failures. I find the side method takes more force.

May be it does take more force, but it's less likely to damage the innards of the valve.

As for qualifications, - my Forum name should tell you. Experience - looking after my own heating systems for nearly 40 years: balancing; installing motorized valves; programmers and thermostats; converting a gravity/pumped to C plan; relocating an F/E tank for a friend because it was too near the boiler, which had been relocated from ground floor to first floor, so the static head was too small and the system was pumping over. (The installers "solution" was to turn the pump down, which immediately produced other problems); etc etc. If any work to the boiler has been required I immediately call in a trusted GSR engineer.

 

[SimonG]

OP will you please give the trv's a sharp tap and a wiggle of the pin. Then let us know the score. Cheers.

 

[SimonG]

I see you are GS registered and a PA member - that's all I know about you.


May be it does take more force, but it's less likely to damage the innards of the valve.

As for qualifications, - my Forum name should tell you. Experience - looking after my own heating systems for nearly 40 years: balancing; installing motorized valves; programmers and thermostats; converting a gravity/pumped to C plan; relocating an F/E tank for a friend because it was too near the boiler, which had been relocated from ground floor to first floor, so the static head was too small and the system was pumping over. (The installers "solution" was to turn the pump down, which immediately produced other problems); etc etc. If any work to the boiler has been required I immediately call in a trusted GSR engineer.

Why didnt you leave the tank and convert to low head situation?

 

[doitmyself]

You are barking up the wrong tree. And I notice that the majority of that is copied directly from the Danfoss MI's.

How am I barking up the wrong tree?

I was not copying anything from Danfoss MI; I was already aware of the fact that Danfoss made a pre-settable body compatible with the C2 head.

What experience do you actually have?

Already answered.

Because I will not have inaccurate advice given on this forum .

I agree wholeheartedly; please advise me which advice in this topic is inaccurate.

 

[SimonG]

How am I barking up the wrong tree?

I was not copying anything from Danfoss MI; I was already aware of the fact that Danfoss made a pre-settable body compatible with the C2 head.


Already answered.


I agree wholeheartedly; please advise me which advice in this topic is inaccurate.

Its not a balancing issue.

 

[jonnyswamp]

I see you are GS registered and a PA member - that's all I know about you.


May be it does take more force, but it's less likely to damage the innards of the valve.

As for qualifications, - my Forum name should tell you. Experience - looking after my own heating systems for nearly 40 years: balancing; installing motorized valves; programmers and thermostats; converting a gravity/pumped to C plan; relocating an F/E tank for a friend because it was too near the boiler, which had been relocated from ground floor to first floor, so the static head was too small and the system was pumping over. (The installers "solution" was to turn the pump down, which immediately produced other problems); etc etc. If any work to the boiler has been required I immediately call in a trusted GSR engineer.

Not going to jump all over you fella but, the majority of home owners/diyers that come on here for advice want advice based on actual experience, not a paragraph lifted straight from mi's ins or a text book
The reality between theoretical experience and practical are sometimes far apart and can require
real world exp to rectify/overcome the problems they may have

 

[doitmyself]

Why didn't you leave the tank and convert to low head situation?

Because the tank needed replacing in any case, so while I was about it I decided to relocate. In any case the boiler's MIs specify a static head of 1m above top of the boiler, without showing a "low head" option, I followed the MIs, as frequently advised on many Forums.

 

[Dotty]

How am I barking up the wrong tree?

I was not copying anything from Danfoss MI; I was already aware of the fact that Danfoss made a pre-settable body compatible with the C2 head.


Already answered.


I agree wholeheartedly; please advise me which advice in this topic is inaccurate.

Its not a balancing issue.

As Simon said. It is NOT a balancing issue. And dabbling with your own and a friends heating systems does not make you experienced. It makes you familiar with those systems.

You, at the moment, are barking up the wrong tree by carrying on about the balancing. Your methodology of that, I will add, is also flawed. You have not read the op in the slightest.

So, do you want to want to try again?

 

[Leo21]

I see you are GS registered and a PA member - that's all I know about you.


May be it does take more force, but it's less likely to damage the innards of the valve.


I once pulled my wobbly tooth out with a price of string. Does that make me a dentist?
You've got no grounds advising people in here through your experience. Yours and a friends house isn't enough.

As for qualifications, - my Forum name should tell you. Experience - looking after my own heating systems for nearly 40 years: balancing; installing motorized valves; programmers and thermostats; converting a gravity/pumped to C plan; relocating an F/E tank for a friend because it was too near the boiler, which had been relocated from ground floor to first floor, so the static head was too small and the system was pumping over. (The installers "solution" was to turn the pump down, which immediately produced other problems); etc etc. If any work to the boiler has been required I immediately call in a trusted GSR engineer.

Well done you! You fixed an issue at some stage.

 

[rpm]

Hi guys, since joining ukpf 3yrs ago this month I`ve read every post, looked at every photograph and learned loads so can I call myself a plumber with experience and argue with real plumbers in the real world ?

Please, pretty please ! lol

 

[ShaunCorbs]

if you can pass the initiation test and pay the fee im sure crop will give your a brand

 

[rpm]

if you can pass the initiation test and pay the fee im sure crop will give your a brand

What like a sheep brand you mean? Er, no thanks I`ll pass on that !!!!

I am an engineer you know, got papers to prove it and my dad showed me the difference between an adjustable, open ended and ring spanner when I was 10 or 11 and he showed me the correct way of winding ptfe tape around a barrel nipple so do I qualify now ?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

What like a sheep brand you mean? Er, no thanks I`ll pass on that !!!!

I am an engineer you know, got papers to prove it and my dad showed me the difference between an adjustable, open ended and ring spanner when I was 10 or 11 and he showed me the correct way of winding ptfe tape around a barrel nipple so do I qualify now ?

its a must it doesnt hurt that much and maybe but the donation will have to be bigger

 

[doitmyself]

I think I will wait until the OP gets his problem solved before I comment further.

 

[PriestyUK]

Best get down Tesco's and get yourself half a dozen eggs and a hat to eat

 

[Best]

I think I will wait until the OP gets his problem solved before I comment further.

I think if the OP hasn't got heat into the bedroom by now, then his 3 year old son must have frozen to death.

 

[smglasgow]

Update:

I have a HIVE thermostat, so turned the heating on from work at 4pm. Got home about 6pm, problem rads still showing top middle tems of 48 lounge and 53 bedroom respectively. Inlet pipe red hot (well 65 anyway with flow from boiler showing 70 using IR thermometer so prob slightly higher in real life). Hot rad close to boiler showing 65 degrees and rest "felt" good a hot. So no miracles occuring over night obvioulsy.

By the time kids were fed and watered it was 6:45 and so quickly decided to try the HIT IT & WAGGLE IT SOLUTI0NS ..............

1. TAPPED PIN HEAD WITH HAMMER 3 TIMES;
2. Tapped side of valve a couple of times;
3. grabbed pin with needle nose pliers and pushed up then pulled down on ping and, finally
4. gave the pin a waggle side to side 12-6 then 3 - 9 oclock before pressing up/down again;

For good measure also tapped lockshield valves and screwed closed, fully opened again........

No IMMEDIATE rocketing of system temperature, damn it (I thought -by now lounge up to 50 and bedroom up to 55 as 45 min has elaspsed with heating on full blast as set room thermostat to 25 at 4pm). Went and bathed kids, 20-min later front room and bedroom pretty much the same +couple of degrees more if that. Remembered over the weekend father in law suggested I set heating pump to no2 speed. Thought stuff it, give the system a blast and so quickly turned pump back to no3 (max speed) - which is actually what Vokera technical help guy told me to set the pump at today, without justifying his statement, when I explained the hassle I was having. Net result, within 10-min bedroom rad up to 60-degrees and front room up to 55degrees.

Has this solved it? - Not convinced to be honest and will need to wait until tomorrow AM to see as remember the rads will eventually warm up if you leave the heating on long enough (like 4 hours) and by this time the system had been blasting on full heat for 3 1/2 hours!

So sorry, but no conclusive proof of system solution (yet). One downside is at Pump setting 3 I now have 10-degree temp difference at boiler between flow and return. Not surpirsing as 8 of the downstairs rads are throttled right down to try and push heat to the rads at end of line. One thing I am certain of is turning the pump to #3 sped up the rate of heating of the problem rads (duh).

Once I solve the problem rads slow heating rate and get them to max temp same as the rest, (60-degrees within 30-min is my target for "success" based on his brothers bedroom radiator performing like this) I will balance the system again to try and get 20-degree temp drop at the boiler (55 return on 75 flow temp) as apparently this increases chances of condensing function working......

Will update tomorrow when Ive seen performance from a cold start.

 

[smglasgow]

p.s. system has been on pump setting 3 for the last 18-m (when i bought the house) and only changes to speed 2 at the weekend after father in law was round, so prior to tonight the system still failed to heat up the problem rads when pump was on 3. I therfore wonder if the valve tapping has helped................tomorrow AM will tell.

Kid not frozen (yet) and sound asleep in cosy bedroom thanks to the last 4 hrs of heating!!

 

[smglasgow]

p.p.s - I see there was some "friction" in the forum between members. All I will say is I appreciate everyone's feedback and thank you all for taking time to try and help out, be that from the position of practicing "certified" engineer or experienced homeowner who has faced similar issues.

 

[Leo21]

Just a few quick questions, I haven't read the the full op. So if you've answered this already, sorry.

Has it ever worked, does it have a cylinder on it? Does the system perform better with the hot water demand satisfied or even off?
Was the system designed and fitted all at the same time? Or added on to with an extension or
Like?
Are you sure the nest is calling for heat all the time? And are there zone valves? All these will have a factor on you system.

 

[SimonG]

Valves red hot. Radiators cool. Trv stuck. Hit it harder. You will see immediate result, unless not hitting it hard enough. Hit it harder.

 

[smglasgow]

Never worked in my view. Home purchased after previous owner renovated from 2 bed to 4 bed bungalo (extended in every direction you can think of). So dont know if all rads were added to the system when the boiler was installed (2010) according to home report or after final building works complete in 2012. I suspect rads were added, but upstairs they all have teh same PVC pipework (15mm diameter) and are identical rads, so might all have been done at the same time. Just dont know.

35kw vokera compact he Comi boiler, so no cylinder.........(sorry not really sure what you are asking)

not looked at performance when hot water demand is ON, as every test I perform I make sure no one turns on the hot water or goes for bath/shower to max heat into t he rads

No zone valves in the system and certain the HIVE system is calling for heat as thermostat set well above room temps in my tests (as I type I wonder if the boiler is reaching the set water temp (70 odd degrees) and cutting out - but again, doesnt explain why his brothers radiator 8ft away in another bedroom shoots up to 65 degrees in no time yet problem rad is still 50 degrees after a couple of hours normally - so I do think the system is calling for heat constantly

 

[Best]

Valves red hot. Radiators cool. Trv stuck. Hit it harder. You will see immediate result, unless not hitting it hard enough. Hit it harder.

Exactly! Nearly always that's all it is. I have to whack them TRV pins hard sometimes.
And it can be inside the body of the TRV and the only way to fix it properly is replace the TRV.
I know it can also be the internal 'pin' seized, which ain't fixable.
Balancing is possible to be the main issue if problem ALWAYS was there, but not otherwise.

 

[SimonG]

Yep. Beat the snot out of it till it works as a makeshift. Dump pressure snatch two new trv's and jobs sorted. 5 pages later.

 

[Leo21]

If it's a combi, the pump should be on 3. Replace the trv,s and go from there.

 

[smglasgow]

p.s only addressing this now as always thought the insulation in the boys room was the issue and so improved that first, which I did last summer and before having a IR thermometer. Brothers room is toasty warm now, but 3yr olds is freezing in morning. Homed in on rad issue afetr buying an IR thermometer to directly compare two rads, and was shocked at how much difference between the two with 8ft separation (10+ degrees typically)

 

[Best]

No zone valves in the system and certain the HIVE system is calling for heat as thermostat set well above room temps in my tests (as I type I wonder if the boiler is reaching the set water temp (70 odd degrees) and cutting out - but again, doesnt explain why his brothers radiator 8ft away in another bedroom shoots up to 65 degrees in no time yet problem rad is still 50 degrees after a couple of hours normally - so I do think the system is calling for heat constantly

Either get the TRV pin thumped with a hammer or whole valve replaced.
By all means fire ahead with a basic balancing of system, - try turning the lockshield valves nearly off on nearby rads that are heating very fast.
Ignore all the technical talk. You are trying to get a radiator improved that has never worked fully. That should have been narrowed down to what is likely wrong, or fixed - a couple of days ago.

 

[smglasgow]

Can I just ask one more favour - Im seeing 1.25 bar pressure rise from cold to hot and have a cold pressure of 1bar, hot goes just over 2bar after 3 1/2 hours tonight. Does this indicate I should check/re-pressurise the expansion vessel or is +1bar from heating acceptable? The vokera 35h EV should be at 1bar.

If I test the EV, I understand the system should be drained of water (so diaphragm has air on both sides) is this correct?

Just trying to get as many jobs done at one time if the system does need draining of all water (not sure if it does for these two jobs -TRV replacement and EV checking).

 

[Best]

You are supposed to get the expansion vessel air charge checked minimum once a year when boiler is serviced.
Remember you can't open the gas boiler or work on it unless you are gas qualified.
Separate expansion vessel is a different story.

 

[Leo21]

Can I just ask one more favour - Im seeing 1.25 bar pressure rise from cold to hot and have a cold pressure of 1bar, hot goes just over 2bar after 3 1/2 hours tonight. Does this indicate I should check/re-pressurise the expansion vessel or is +1bar from heating acceptable? The vokera 35h EV should be at 1bar.

If I test the EV, I understand the system should be drained of water (so diaphragm has air on both sides) is this correct?

Just trying to get as many jobs done at one time if the system does need draining of all water (not sure if it does for these two jobs -TRV replacement and EV checking).

If the case has to come off you can't do that without being gsr.