DIY Gas Fitting

[mountainman]

Back to square one then, I Win!

 

[fuzzy]

not quite sure what you refer to when you say you win, in fact im not quite sure you understand the regulations. it states quite cleary you only have to be competent to work on gas, you only have to be regsitered if you work and charge for it ie emplyed or self employed. it really is that simple, its there in black and white
its up to you to prove you are competenet, it doesnt state what that refers to, it is widely accepted that to be competent you must have your acs, i agree, but i also feel there are exceptions to this, is my retired friend who was a tutor at british gas and helped set up the acs when it first started

 

[lambchop]

The reason why the d.i.y. stores are allowed to sell gas parts etc, enabling the d.i.y. er to put everybody at risk is because they went to court and argued the point that it is restrictive under the freedom of trade act to stop them from doing so! It goes to show how many people are doing there own work because they are selling lots of stuff at silly prices that no tradesman would pay unless a dire emergency on a sun aft. Spoke to a gas safe inspector about this and they said we have tried to stop this a number of times but they have chucked the towel in. Should invalidate house insurance if you dont have your gas apps serviced annually = good all round for everybody

 

[Bernie2]

Hmm!

Would not mind it being part of an insurance policy to get gas installations tested.

But would limit the cost a gas fitter could charge to about £5 to the customer and the rest paid by the insurance company. It may be amazing how many customers you would get if costs are low, even the DIY would find it cheaper to get you in.

Funny really how Safety and cost get all mixed up. Seems to me, a lot of money can be made out of Safety, but a lot of Safety standards can be kept up by low cost. What about uninsured people?

As to not selling gas fittings in stores. Yes okay, only sell them to the customer on proof of gas work being undertaken with an indemnity that they will be installed when used according to the Gas Regs. That way it would stop unfair gas fitters charging what ever they liked for them.

In practice you can buy unstamped BS water fittings in stores even though it is illegal to use them.

 

[lambchop]

Maybe Im a little too hardcore, in the way I cant imagine anyone buying a gas fitting who is not qualiffied to fit unless they are up to no good. When you need a new exhaust you dont go and buy it and then take it to the mechanic to fit. Government should get their 'balls' out of their mums handbag. Make it illegal to sell these fittings unless an I.D. card is presented and a hefty fine if a shop is caught doing it. It seems to have improved not selling alcohol to kids by toughening up some common sense laws, why not to gas....?

 

[fuzzy]

The reason why the d.i.y. stores are allowed to sell gas parts etc, enabling the d.i.y. er to put everybody at risk is because they went to court and argued the point that it is restrictive under the freedom of trade act to stop them from doing so! It goes to show how many people are doing there own work because they are selling lots of stuff at silly prices that no tradesman would pay unless a dire emergency on a sun aft. Spoke to a gas safe inspector about this and they said we have tried to stop this a number of times but they have chucked the towel in. Should invalidate house insurance if you dont have your gas apps serviced annually = good all round for everybody

just because somebody buys a gas part does not mean it is fitted illegally

 

[Bernie2]

Its called freedom of choice. The buyer knows or should know the Gas Regs. It is up to them if they want to break the law. We do not govern cars down to the legal maximum speed limit do we? It is up to us if we break the limits. People have to be responsible.

 

[midge]

Maybe more people would use a registered installer if the costs were lower, unfortunately with current ACS and Gas Safe costs the installer has to charge a lot.

Can you imagine the outcry if all car drivers had to re-take a driving test every five years.

 

[Bernie2]

Yes I suppose cost is the main factor why you get people doing DIY. Some do like doing it for a hobby mind. The cost of gas training for ACS and the likes do add on a lot to running costs for a small company. If however, you consider how much money is made by gas suppliers and appliance manufacturers who are reliant on appliances being fitted by gas fitters, isn't it fair to ask for a large contribution from them toward training and ACS costs?

We even get boiler manufaturers seeming to want to charge you for learning how to service their equipment they should be paying you for wanting to do it.

Lets be honest wouldyou sell motor cars if nobody had passed a driving test that was required by law?

Surely safety is the object of ACS and to learn how to work safely should cost next to nothing.

 

[Puddle]

Maybe more people would use a registered installer if the costs were lower, unfortunately with current ACS and Gas Safe costs the installer has to charge a lot.

Can you imagine the outcry if all car drivers had to re-take a driving test every five years.

What is the difference in cost from a unqualified tradesman in gas and a tradesman with his gas card,not that much I believe ?

 

[mountainman]

Perception that a properly trained, qualified, insured and knowledgable tradesman is going to be much more expensive than a mate who 'does a bit of everything' is the problem IMO.

A few weeks ago a poster stated within the first couple of sentences 'I know that plumbers are expensive'

There is no counter to this mentality yet the same people flock to superstores to buy inferior products at inflated prices.

 

[david williams]

our courts can not decide the definitive definition of competant,its not about safety its about jobs for the boys and taking money off of you,ask gas safe hse for figures about prosecutions and complaints about unsafe instalations,have they gone down since registration came in,how many ec unregisterd plumbers are prosecuted ?.i have been in this industry for over 40 years and i know many plumbers my age who are not registerd for gas,but still do the work and are a dam site more competant than most of the fast track gas fitters i have had work for me.you all seem to think there should be legistration to ensure work for yourselves.

 

[mountainman]

There is if you live in OZ.

 

[fuzzy]

Yes I suppose cost is the main factor why you get people doing DIY. Some do like doing it for a hobby mind. The cost of gas training for ACS and the likes do add on a lot to running costs for a small company. If however, you consider how much money is made by gas suppliers and appliance manufacturers who are reliant on appliances being fitted by gas fitters, isn't it fair to ask for a large contribution from them toward training and ACS costs?

We even get boiler manufaturers seeming to want to charge you for learning how to service their equipment they should be paying you for wanting to do it.

Lets be honest wouldyou sell motor cars if nobody had passed a driving test that was required by law?

Surely safety is the object of ACS and to learn how to work safely should cost next to nothing.

remember though that you may be competent but not have your acs or be registered, then you can legally install a gas fitting or appliance, not possible if freedom to purchase gas fitting is removed

dont fall into the trap of thinking somebody who is a DIYer buys a gas fitting isnt competent or legal

 

[fuzzy]

our courts can not decide the definitive definition of competant,its not about safety its about jobs for the boys and taking money off of you,ask gas safe hse for figures about prosecutions and complaints about unsafe instalations,have they gone down since registration came in,how many ec unregisterd plumbers are prosecuted ?.i have been in this industry for over 40 years and i know many plumbers my age who are not registerd for gas,but still do the work and are a dam site more competant than most of the fast track gas fitters i have had work for me.you all seem to think there should be legistration to ensure work for yourselves.

maybe they are competent but they are working illegally if not registered and as a living

competence without registration only allows you to work on your own property

 

[mountainman]

How many gas fitters both 'fast track', registered and incompetent
And
'Old School', competent but unregistered have you employed Fuzzy?
If you are a major employer then perhaps you might consider paying your guys more money so that the older competent ones work for you legally and maybe even take a less experienced person under their wing and pass on their knowledge to the next generation.

 

[fuzzy]

How many gas fitters both 'fast track', registered and incompetent
And
'Old School', competent but unregistered have you employed Fuzzy?
If you are a major employer then perhaps you might consider paying your guys more money so that the older competent ones work for you legally and maybe even take a less experienced person under their wing and pass on their knowledge to the next generation.

not sure i follow your point.

im pointing out that to work on gas employed or self employed you must be registered. To be registeed you need your acs which is proof of competence.
If you work as a DIYer you only need to be competent, this may be through your acs but doesnt have to be, although i recon theres only a rare few who could prove it without

I would never employ anybody to do gas who was not registered
id never report a competent unregistered person working on their own home

 

[hammers4spanner]

not sure i follow your point.

im pointing out that to work on gas employed or self employed you must be registered. To be registeed you need your acs which is proof of competence.
If you work as a DIYer you only need to be competent, this may be through your acs but doesnt have to be, although i recon theres only a rare few who could prove it without

I would never employ anybody to do gas who was not registered
id never report a competent unregistered person working on their own home

So how does it work idf someone is competent to work on own home but when moving house cant issue a gas cert to build control ?

 

[Kyle87]

i bet you lose any gaurantees on appliances if a person who isnt gas registered works on them. apologies if this point has already been made....i havnt read entire thread!

 

[fuzzy]

So how does it work idf someone is competent to work on own home but when moving house cant issue a gas cert to build control ?

i dont know, ive never come across it, doesnt mean the law has been broken though.

 

[fuzzy]

i bet you lose any gaurantees on appliances if a person who isnt gas registered works on them. apologies if this point has already been made....i havnt read entire thread!

maybe so but again this doesnt mean it is illegal

 

[hammers4spanner]

The reason i ask is because i have recently come across the exact scenario of a non gas qualified person installing in their own home and upon sale no gas certs have been provided .
upon reporting this to gsr i got a response of pass it over to build control who have done a grand total of nothing !!!
If this is a case of the prior owner felt competent ( i have seen the work and say otherwise) then if nothing happens doesnt this make all this competent person irrelevant regarding someones own home??

 

[fuzzy]

The reason i ask is because i have recently come across the exact scenario of a non gas qualified person installing in their own home and upon sale no gas certs have been provided .
upon reporting this to gsr i got a response of pass it over to build control who have done a grand total of nothing !!!
If this is a case of the prior owner felt competent ( i have seen the work and say otherwise) then if nothing happens doesnt this make all this competent person irrelevant regarding someones own home??

a number of points come from this:

My experience with building control is just as you have suggested. I'm not even sure they know what the rules are regarding plumbing and gas, i had a similar experience reporting an unvented system.

They are breaking the law if working on their own home and not being competent. Just because 'they felt competent' is not the same. I dont consider the regs irrelevant, they are fine as they are for me.

is the installation legal? it may be ruff but if its legal then i fail too see what law has been broken. i suggest if something went wrong he would be prosecuted, but if not is it worth taking to court over 'competency'? it would be difficult to prove he wasnt if the work is ok and theefore a waste of gsr/public money and time

 

[hammers4spanner]

The boiler has been registered although the fire hasn't been register and when i looked at it its an ID scenario upon smoke test (spilling). To me in some scenario's the gas laws are not overly helpfull.

 

[fuzzy]

The boiler has been registered although the fire hasn't been register and when i looked at it its an ID scenario upon smoke test (spilling). To me in some scenario's the gas laws are not overly helpfull.

what do you think is wrong in the laws??????

as far as i can see this is a ID and therefore the jobs has not been done safely, therefore breaking regs. it further supports lack of competence, which is also a reg

 

[hammers4spanner]

I'm not saying their is anything wrong myself but its how joe bloggs has interpreted it as in the competant person .

Why dont they just say you cant work on gas at all unless you have taken said appropriate persons course in competancy , just my opinion from experience in this case i have recently come across

 

[fuzzy]

I'm not saying their is anything wrong myself but its how joe bloggs has interpreted it as in the competant person .

Why dont they just say you cant work on gas at all unless you have taken said appropriate persons course in competancy , just my opinion from experience in this case i have recently come across

id be surprised that this person has read the regs and decided he/she is competent, more likely they decided to do it anyway, and therefore ignorant imho

the laws cannot stop ignorance

the debate over what is and what isnt competent will never be solved, each case is individual and only considered once something goes wrong normally in a court of law. as something has gone wrong i presume its difficult for them to claim competency!

if the law was that you had to do a course that would mean a retired gas fitter of 50 years experience whos acs ran out 2 days ago couldnt sevrice his own fire, i dont agree with this

 

[MUR4Y]

Just fitted a new combi in my own home. Been a plumber for the last 24 years (Time served) . Did my acops when that was on the go. Got my acs ccn1 and cen1 and was gas safe through the firm I previously worked for till they folded last year. Fitted any amount of boilers on new build sites for them. Even though acs certs don't run out till 2013 I am no longer classed as gas safe, but there is no chance I am gonna pay another bloke to come round to fit my boiler when I am totally capable myself. Obviously boiler warranty is now void cos I cannot sign off the benchmark. How many more plumbers have been in the same situation?.

 

[AWheating]

Just fitted a new combi in my own home. Been a plumber for the last 24 years (Time served) . Did my acops when that was on the go. Got my acs ccn1 and cen1 and was gas safe through the firm I previously worked for till they folded last year. Fitted any amount of boilers on new build sites for them. Even though acs certs don't run out till 2013 I am no longer classed as gas safe, but there is no chance I am gonna pay another bloke to come round to fit my boiler when I am totally capable myself. Obviously boiler warranty is now void cos I cannot sign off the benchmark. How many more plumbers have been in the same situation?.

plenty. Loads of guys Gas Safe registered through a company have the same problem when doing work on there own houses. If the company you work for will not let you sign of the installation under there GS number what can you do about it??

 

[midge]

Just fitted a new combi in my own home. .... Obviously boiler warranty is now void cos I cannot sign off the benchmark.

Don't worry. You know it is fitted correctly, if something does fail, you will also have the skill and ability to repair it at minimal cost.

 

[hammers4spanner]

Don't worry. You know it is fitted correctly, if something does fail, you will also have the skill and ability to repair it at minimal cost.

very true but when they move will have to get a gsr engineer in to certify boiler ,,,,,all a tad daft !!

 

[Bernie2]

Hmm!

Making laws are a bit irrelevant regarding competence. Laws are a cheap way for governments to police an industry. The problem with them is, they do not usually come into effect until something goes wrong.

There should be a local gas inspector team paid for by the gas industry as a whole, who could go to every job where a gas appliance is being fitted or installation installed, for them to inspect the work and either yes or no it. You could then do away with all the ACS and Gas Safe stuff.

The repair work could be done quite easily by designing boilers in sections. All the gas fitter could then do, is replace each gas train section if it failed, requiring no more competence that it does for a housewife to turn on the gas cooker.

Owh! All the money spinners going lads!

 

[xixal]

Dan, thanks for your comments but I am not trying to install cookers or fires.

 

[xixal]

DIY Gas fitting is not recommending. This includes the installation of Gas appliances such as cookers and fires etc.

Always use a gas safe registered plumber for all your Gas plumbing requirements.

Dan, thanks for your comments I am not trying to fit a cooker or fire.

 

[xixal]

Stuart, I have already scoped where to buy the parts i.e 2 x lengths of coated pipework and three connections, no one asked me about being corgi registered. Furthermore any work carried out would be checked by a gas enginner who would be Corgi registered. I have had 4 quotes, all ranging from 1300 - 2300 pounds, the materials cost 176 pounds even at the lowest quote thats 1100 pounds for two pieces of pipe and soldering three connectors. Is any wonder people like myself are looking at other methods that are SAFE to do the job at a realistic price. is any wonder why they call this country "RIP OF BRITAIN"