DIY Gas Fitting

[thomas.l]

would'nt be a good idea, you have to get 100% in the gas exam to become a competent installer so you can imagine how dangerous it can be if you go wrong, your better of getting a fully qualified, gas safe installer

 

[migoplumber]

most of the acs courses are a 100% pass rate, they want your money too!!

 

[adrianfs1]

hi sorry to butt in guys, but how are you supposed to learn how to work with gas if you are not allowed to work with gas, all these gorgi guys are going to retire eventually, who will do the work then...????????????

 

[Puddle]

hi sorry to butt in guys, but how are you supposed to learn how to work with gas if you are not allowed to work with gas, all these gorgi guys are going to retire eventually, who will do the work then...????????????

Good point Adrian,thats why most think the gas suppliers should put more into training via the governing bodies
I would say there should be sponsered centers were trainee gas fitters could go and carry out their portfollio projects
Or I, as a trained self employed plumber should be able to ring up a center and offer one or two days or a weeks site experiance when I have a certain types of work on
I have said before ,it is hard for a self employed person to commit to a full time training scheme,maybe there could be one trainee and he could move between five or six tradesmen
Like a agency,I could ring up and offer to take a tranee as and when I know I have gas work or doing gas safety inspections for the day ect
The above could work for all trades and provide better training,trainees may be with a tradesman less than now but would learn alot more

 

[ian4147]

lol not been on for ages as been very busy at college etc.the person involved did fly planes if you had read my second post he also engineers model steam engines which i imagine have much higher pressures than your average gas supply.he recently removed his gas fire which was profesionally fitted and low and behold the pipe was almost cut through because it had been tightened up that much.

 

[fuzzy]

hi sorry to butt in guys, but how are you supposed to learn how to work with gas if you are not allowed to work with gas, all these gorgi guys are going to retire eventually, who will do the work then...????????????

you can sit your ACS if you have experience of working with a registered gasinstaller(RGI). Thats hard to get but so it should be, the prefered option by the industry and the people you will be doing work for is a apprenticeship, either for school leavers or adults. it makes no difference what your age is as long as you get the correct training and experience.
The ACS that you complain you cannot do without experience isnt a training course but a refresher for expereinced fitters. If your new you want a level2 then 3 gas fitting course.

Yes all RGI's will retire as will other trades and they like gas will require newentrants who are just as skilled as the previous tradesmen, nothing wrong with that.

oh and dave williams, its not about money, its about ensuring people working on such apliances have the skills to do so and policing it. as a cleint im sure you would want that

 

[CopperPot]

Do most plumbers not go as far as gas qualifications? ive been looking into becoming a plumber and i have decided not to get gas qualified immediatley... for 1, i think working with gas cannot be learned well on a fast track and 2, its bloody expensive to train. Im going to get the lower certificates and work for a year or 2 before attempting the gas side of things..

you can sit your ACS if you have experience of working with a registered gasinstaller(RGI). Thats hard to get but so it should be, the prefered option by the industry and the people you will be doing work for is a apprenticeship, either for school leavers or adults.

 

[fuzzy]

Do most plumbers not go as far as gas qualifications? ive been looking into becoming a plumber and i have decided not to get gas qualified immediatley... for 1, i think working with gas cannot be learned well on a fast track and 2, its bloody expensive to train. Im going to get the lower certificates and work for a year or 2 before attempting the gas side of things..

There are many plumbers who do not work on gas, they are after all 2 different trades! they only really merged when plumbers started fitting gas central heating. now the trades are linked but sperate. many plumbers only do the acs and cen1 to fit boilers. Leaving the other aspects to gas fitters
the route you suggest is the prefered option to the trade, get either your plumb quals, gian experience and then go for your acs OR train as a gas fitter and not a plumber.

 

[Bakiibak]

Hi, guys anyone out there who is a whiz on explaining purging volumes U6 metric up to 28mm pipe......?? I will try and explain what is confusing me so bear with me...hear goes, I have a few questions got my exams due soon so really got to get this in my head (i know you will all understand what am goin through!!)

I know the amounts 0.01m3 0.35 ft3 etc but don't know how we get to these figures. I understand its 5 x the badge cap. and 4 x for purge and cap but how do we get to the figure 0.01 when the badge cap. is V = 2dm3 (G4) am I doing this right assuming 2dm3 /1000 = 0.002 then multiply by 5 to get 0.01 m3 therefore 4 x = 0.008 (0.01m3) is this correct?

Also not quite understanding how the imperial calc. work out in my notes:
5 x 0.071 = 0.355ft3 I understand that!! but for 4 x 0.071 = 0.284 ft3 is this correct??

in my notes I have 4 x 0.142 = 0.568ft3 which one is right my notes cap is suddenly 0.0142
regards dave

 

[plumber sydney]

Yes even i support *********. Gas is very dangerous , you need to let it handle by the experts.
-------------------------
http://www.getplumbing.com.au

 

[Bernie2]

Hmm!

Some old chestnuts bubbling away here!

Gas fitters where until about the 1970's regarded as part of Plumbing and still are. But they where thought of as semi skilled by some, simply because they could not usually do the full range of a Plumbers job. Whereas a Plumber was expected to be able to do the full range of a gas fitters job.

The reason they seem to be two separate trades now, is because of the old British Gas company. They moved into the domestic central heating market and demanded that their gas fitters start fitting central heating. It was a marketing ploy not a skills move that separated the two. On one site we where pretty "pally" with BG guys and some of the lads would go down to a neighbouring site in their dinner hour and help the BG gas fitters by telling them how to do the central heating. I must admit I suppose a few pints where part of the bargain.

Anybody looking into the history of BG will probably find the reasons why the domestic heating industry is like it is now. They virtually dominated the whole domestic heating market and dictated to it.

I suppose you could say its a bit like the ceiling fixer and the joiner. The joiner installed suspended ceilings but it became a market on its own so some joinery company's started to specialise in ceiling fixing. You could go on, a brickie and a plumber both learn drainage but its usually specialist drain layers who now do most of the work.

I have worked on site's where the company I was working for has been doing the plumbing and another the central heating, gone to another site where, we where doing the central heating and the other company the plumbing.

Its the same with roof work and flashings.

However the Plumber has to learn, drainage, central heating, gas fitting and possible basic electrical. In Scotland Plumbers wired the houses out as they protested when electricity first came out that the electricians where pinching their gas installation work.

Incidentally the original central heating engineers went to a property usually large properties, measured up and then went back to their factory and made the rads and pipes usually by casting them in iron.
That is why they are called engineers and not pipe fitters.
The Plumber also did the fitting of the rads and pipes, but not the engineering.

Now as I explained the gas fitter/plumber/central heating engineer all do it.

And we have not even mentioned glazing yet!!!

Lets be honest, its all about earning a crust and what you think you can do to earn one and interest of course.

All this inter trade war and perhaps qualification snobbery is just silly.

If you go on a course all you learn is what somebody else has found out. The British Standards change nearly every year because they find new things out all the time. The ACS is done every five years because technology changes. So I don't suppose anybody can say they know it all.

 

[GPSNewcastle]

Brilliant post, a refreshing look at the topic and an interesting read

Hmm!

Some old chestnuts bubbling away here!

Gas fitters where until about the 1970's regarded as part of Plumbing and still are. But they where thought of as semi skilled by some, simply because they could not usually do the full range of a Plumbers job. Whereas a Plumber was expected to be able to do the full range of a gas fitters job.

The reason they seem to be two separate trades now, is because of the old British Gas company. They moved into the domestic central heating market and demanded that their gas fitters start fitting central heating. It was a marketing ploy not a skills move that separated the two. On one site we where pretty "pally" with BG guys and some of the lads would go down to a neighbouring site in their dinner hour and help the BG gas fitters by telling them how to do the central heating. I must admit I suppose a few pints where part of the bargain.

Anybody looking into the history of BG will probably find the reasons why the domestic heating industry is like it is now. They virtually dominated the whole domestic heating market and dictated to it.

I suppose you could say its a bit like the ceiling fixer and the joiner. The joiner installed suspended ceilings but it became a market on its own so some joinery company's started to specialise in ceiling fixing. You could go on, a brickie and a plumber both learn drainage but its usually specialist drain layers who now do most of the work.

I have worked on site's where the company I was working for has been doing the plumbing and another the central heating, gone to another site where, we where doing the central heating and the other company the plumbing.

Its the same with roof work and flashings.

However the Plumber has to learn, drainage, central heating, gas fitting and possible basic electrical. In Scotland Plumbers wired the houses out as they protested when electricity first came out that the electricians where pinching their gas installation work.

Incidentally the original central heating engineers went to a property usually large properties, measured up and then went back to their factory and made the rads and pipes usually by casting them in iron.
That is why they are called engineers and not pipe fitters.
The Plumber also did the fitting of the rads and pipes, but not the engineering.

Now as I explained the gas fitter/plumber/central heating engineer all do it.

And we have not even mentioned glazing yet!!!

Lets be honest, its all about earning a crust and what you think you can do to earn one and interest of course.

All this inter trade war and perhaps qualification snobbery is just silly.

If you go on a course all you learn is what somebody else has found out. The British Standards change nearly every year because they find new things out all the time. The ACS is done every five years because technology changes. So I don't suppose anybody can say they know it all.

 

[fuzzy]

great post bernie, not sure i agree with it entirely though, some interesting points all the same

 

[rumpo]

iam new here as iam looking about retraining ,but i was was a plumber back in the sventies and rember what bernie says ,even as a apprentice i was throwing full heating systems in,inluding first fix gas ,including the boiler ,then a guy from bg would turn up ,bang the meter in and sign it off,read somewhere that now i carnt put the boiler in ,,is this true ?

 

[Twinhawk]

Well if i was desperate for work i would install the gas component(s) and pay some1 to commission it who is qualified

 

[Bernie2]

Hmm!

Gas fitting is part of Plumbing and always has been. Contrary to what people may say it is not a specialist trade at all. The gas fitters started doing domestic central heating not the other way around. The Plumber was installing central heating virtually soon after its invention and a supply of heating component parts where readily available on the market.

The term "central heating engineer" refers to the time when an engineer would have to measure up a job and then go back and cast the parts in iron at the foundry hence the "engineer" and not just heating fitter.

Obviously a Plumber could not make the parts, but shared the same technology and had a bit more specialised Plumbing technology as well. However when parts became freely available the Plumber started to do central heating usually biased more to the standardised parts for domestic heating market than the commercial/industrial both of which sides as well as domestic I have worked on with other Plumbers.

In modern times the "central heating engineer" is usually associated as being the person who does commercial/industrial and only a bit of domestic heating work, the rest of the domestic work is usually done by a Plumber or sometimes specialist heating only company's.

The confusion comes from BG wanting to expand into all kinds of new markets and don't forget their heating engineers fix washing machines and dishwashers as well. I suppose their gas fitters could be called multi skilled.

The reality is everybody is looking toward what ever they can do to earn a crust. The idea you can stick to just one specialist trade is now out dated. That is partly why it all needs opening up.

 

[fuzzy]

Hmm!

Gas fitting is part of Plumbing and always has been. Contrary to what people may say it is not a specialist trade at all. The gas fitters started doing domestic central heating not the other way around. The Plumber was installing central heating virtually soon after its invention and a supply of heating component parts where readily available on the market.

The term "central heating engineer" refers to the time when an engineer would have to measure up a job and then go back and cast the parts in iron at the foundry hence the "engineer" and not just heating fitter.

Obviously a Plumber could not make the parts, but shared the same technology and had a bit more specialised Plumbing technology as well. However when parts became freely available the Plumber started to do central heating usually biased more to the standardised parts for domestic heating market than the commercial/industrial both of which sides as well as domestic I have worked on with other Plumbers.

In modern times the "central heating engineer" is usually associated as being the person who does commercial/industrial and only a bit of domestic heating work, the rest of the domestic work is usually done by a Plumber or sometimes specialist heating only company's.

The confusion comes from BG wanting to expand into all kinds of new markets and don't forget their heating engineers fix washing machines and dishwashers as well. I suppose their gas fitters could be called multi skilled.

The reality is everybody is looking toward what ever they can do to earn a crust. The idea you can stick to just one specialist trade is now out dated. That is partly why it all needs opening up.

Hi bernie, i beg to differ my friend. BG did all the gas, plumbers did plumbing. When they opened up gas fitting to others they created acops as a safe measure. Now the trades are merged somewhat and it will never become a clear line between as it was particulalry because of boilers.
If they are the same trade why is there an NVQ in plumbing and one in gas?

 

[Reg Man]

I differ to: Gas is a different ball game. Technical stuff about flues, combustion , ventilation, Boiler controls ect: One thing I do agree with. Historically plumbing is a very highly skilled job. Unfortunatley the reference to plumbing has gone a little a stray. Plumber is Latin for Lead Worker. How many people calling them selves plumbers can do Lead Work? Both trades are due credit and some of our can diversify into both.

 

[Bernie2]

Ahh! Go on with yer!!

British Gas's job was to make gas and distribute it not fit appliances although they did that also. When the JIB grades first came out in the 70's, BG gas fitters where classed as semi skilled Trained Plumbers a grade below the usual Plumbers Advanced grade, because BG said their job was not as skilled as Plumbers even though both came under the same grading scheme. The BG guys protested like mad about that. So BG said to them, okay fit central heating like Plumbers do and we will give you the Advanced grade. The guys had a rough time until they learnt the ropes of how to do central heating some of my mates helped some of them out.

Also the specialist Plumbing company I worked for, had a Gas fitting division years ago and did sub contract work for BG, as well as all its Plumbers installing all the domestic gas in new builds and refurbs as well as going with the gas guys when there was no Plumbing.

BG was in fact a nationalised company that had formerly been many smaller private companies in point I worked for a company that put the first gas lighting in in Liverpool and that was a Building company with a Plumbing division.

 

[stevejordan]

work on your own home is illeagal unless you are competent
work in someone elses for no gain - competent but not corgi
work for gain - corgi

ITS ABOUT TIME ALL D.I.Y. OUTLETS AND SOME PLUMBING MERCHANTS - START ASKING FOR I.D. (GAS SAFE CARD)
YES I KNOW THIS MAY CAUSE HOME OWNERS SOME INCOVENIANCE ,AS SOME INSTALLERS ARE TO BUSY TO PICK UP, BUT THIS WOULD SURELY CUT OUT SOME OF THE COWBOYS (NOT ALL AS THE FAKE GAS SAFE CARDS ARE OUT THERE

competent =ACS qual[/QUOTE]

 

[Reg Man]

Competence has a deffinition: Someone who has relevant training, qualification and experience. This is usually something tested in court. The gas industry use ACS is proof of competence. This is relied upon because of the systems in place are overseen by UKAS for approved ACS centres carrying out the assessments. This makes it much easier in court, because most people who have not done ACS and stand in the dock, have not got a chance, why are they there in the first place? This could include DIY fitting. So if your a DIY person and you have not gone through ACS, then if the gas work goes badly wrong you will have big problems defending your actions in court.

 

[fuzzy]

Competence has a deffinition: Someone who has relevant training, qualification and experience. This is usually something tested in court. The gas industry use ACS is proof of competence. This is relied upon because of the systems in place are overseen by UKAS for approved ACS centres carrying out the assessments. This makes it much easier in court, because most people who have not done ACS and stand in the dock, have not got a chance, why are they there in the first place? This could include DIY fitting. So if your a DIY person and you have not gone through ACS, then if the gas work goes badly wrong you will have big problems defending your actions in court.

agreed, only exception would be somebody retired who had been a gas engineer all their life and the acs just run out, they may have a claim?

 

[Reg Man]

May be? Case in Norwich recently, involving retired plumber with no registration and no ACS, was prosecuted.

 

[fuzzy]

May be? Case in Norwich recently, involving retired plumber with no registration and no ACS, was prosecuted.

really! was he recently acs qualified? very experienced? i know a X BG trainer who helped write the acs, he now retired and acs ran out, id still trust him before many newly qualified, id say he was competent

 

[Reg Man]

No He was a plumber all his life, but did not hold ACS. ("I've been doing this all my life why should I have some jumped up regulators tell me how to do my job") Typical attitude of someone who thinks, they know it all and can't be taught anything, or someone who has been crap at the job all there life and is frigthened of being exposed?

 

[metaldust9]

dont think ive done anything as hard as this acs, stuff i no and have been doing ages just goes out my head and am durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rabbit in the headlights so why should ilegal people get away with it

 

[fuzzy]

No He was a plumber all his life, but did not hold ACS. ("I've been doing this all my life why should I have some jumped up regulators tell me how to do my job") Typical attitude of someone who thinks, they know it all and can't be taught anything, or someone who has been crap at the job all there life and is frigthened of being exposed?

oh i see, completely different to my example then, no sympathy. some knowledge is often more dangerous than no knowledge

 

[Bernie2]

Interestingly we do not seem to know how many gas related accidents there were before compulsory registration came out.

Has safety improved or become worse due to technical advances making boilers overly complicated and seemingly PCB reliant?

 

[Reg Man]

My personal view is: There were many incidents prior to mandatory gas registration. Then we had de-regulation of British gas which opened up the market to alot more people who were not necessarily gas trained. Additionaly we had problems with little investment into new apprenticeships and training. On the plus side; open flued appliances are becoming a thing of the past and leaps forward in technology of appliances has certainly improved the situation. We have also been subject to proof of competance through ACS, which could only have been a good thing. So on balance the industry is in a much safer place than it could have been. You will notice that not all incidents are caused by installers bad work and many of those which did, are the not so good people, who have ignored the requirements or, had no idear what they were surposed to do. Therefore reinforcing the need for some regulation body to oversee the industry. Unfortunately the new scheme seems more interested in just running a register, rather than leading the industry and it pushes everything else back to various industry bodies to sort out. In my view not the most effective way of moving forward because there are to many bodies with different agenda's, so how are resonable decisions ever going to be made.

 

[Bernie2]

I am still unsure. It seems to me that in the past gas appliances were basically very simple affairs and very easy to maintain. But with the call for more fuel efficiencies it seems complication after complication has been added to the point many boilers now seem to require a CPU and various PCB boards fitted to even get them to go. Some also require expensive and complicated diagnostic equipment to service them.

The problem is, this all makes boilers more difficult for service engineers to really understand in detail. Doesn't this mean the likelihood of more accidents is increased? Also the use of PCB seems to be one in which a new system board comes out every five minutes depending if it can do the job cheaper than the one before. Problem is are they reliable?

I am not a dinosaur wanting got go back to the dark ages, but I do question whether complication if it is not needed makes for safer boilers.

 

[Mick Helpful]

Quite simply if you are competent you can work on your own gas installation. Read regulation 3:

[FONT=&quot]3.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] - (1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so.

(2) The employer of any person carrying out such work for that employer, every other employer and self-employed person who has control to any extent of such work and every employer and self-employed person who has required such work to be carried out at any place of work under his control shall ensure that paragraph (1) above is complied with in relation to such work.

(3) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraphs (1) and (2) above and subject to paragraph (4) below, no employer shall allow any of his employees to carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or service pipework and no self-employed person shall carry out any such work, unless the employer or self-employed person, as the case may be, is a member of a class of persons approved for the time being by the Health and Safety Executive for the purposes of this paragraph.[/FONT]

So if you are competent you can do your own work if you are not employed. If you are employed you or you company have to belong to the class of persons refferred to, i.e. are GasSafe registered. Note that if you work for a Company who is registered you don't have to be registered, merely competent. In other words exactly the same as a competent DIYer!!

With regard Bernie2's comment these PCB's are exorbitantly priced and are non-serviceable. Why worry the punter pays! You can buy 4 digital setop boxes for the price of one of them. Some of the boards are reliable but others aren't and with no circuit data fault finding at component level is virtually impossible. The curent regulatory system and training means that most plumbers are merely panel jockeys. Ask GasSafe for a plumber who can fault find pcb's with a duff buck regulator, triac or thyristor costing at the most £1.50 and you'll draw a blank

 

[Reg Man]

Competence? will normaly only be tested in court.

If you have passed ACS, you've prooved competance.

 

[REDSAW]

you cant beat an old bi-plane for reliability.lol.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

you in your own world again red?

 

[fuzzy]

Competence? will normaly only be tested in court.

If you have passed ACS, you've prooved competance.

you can be done for having but not applying competence, so i read in gas engineer mag a couple of months ago!

there are other but more difficult ways of proving competence