Cutting your throat

[Deleted member 32524]

Hello All,

My name is Duncan I live and work in Glasgow. I am getting really annoyed at the moron engineers selling themselves short. This morning I had a meeting with a potential letting agent who informed me that he was getting landlord reports done for £30 a pop for all appliances. This is not the first to inform me of this price.

Why charge so little? Are they being done right as I have spoken to a tenant of this letting agent and was informed that both a report and service was carried out last week and only took 10 mins? I think that is about enough time to fill in the report but not a full check and service.

Another example is I was asked to quote for a new pump on a boiler and was astonished to find that someone had quoted £25 to fit it??!! At this price I would not even break even on that job.

Come on guys sell on quality, service and reliability not price. You are not doing anyone, including yourself, any favours. Stop now and put your prices up to a decent level.

Too many people flooding this marketplace with no experience in gas or business. Stop this quick route to ACS. if pricing continues this way the job will not be worth doing. Get a grip! If people will not pay that price they will have no option if we all charge a decent level.

 

[dancinplumba]

agree wholeheartedly duncan but who do we get everyone to do likewise ? there will always be someone who will do it for next to nowt sadly

 

[Deleted member 32524]

True. It may be time to look at my own business model. Just want to earn a living and not wreck my knees and the rest for next to nothing.

 

[ecowarm]

I think this says it all
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21 Feb 2012 – Salary: £7.00 - £7.50 p hour + Time and a Half Overtime, Job Type: Temporary/Seasonal, Duration: On Going, Start Date: ASAP - Apply Now for ...

AND its gone!!!

 

[ecowarm]

[h=1]Plumber[/h] Gi Group is working in partnership with a local bathroom production company to recruit experienced, hard working semi-skilled individuals with knowledge in plumbing.

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[gasmarc]

I live and work in london and use to do work for all the estate agents locally , They now have stopped using me as they can get people to do a gas cert and service apparently for £45 ,Well they are welcome to it because I am not changing my prices especially when things are getting more expensive.

 

[kirkgas]

Hello All,

My name is Duncan I live and work in Glasgow. I am getting really annoyed at the moron engineers selling themselves short. This morning I had a meeting with a potential letting agent who informed me that he was getting landlord reports done for £30 a pop for all appliances. This is not the first to inform me of this price.

Why charge so little? Are they being done right as I have spoken to a tenant of this letting agent and was informed that both a report and service was carried out last week and only took 10 mins? I think that is about enough time to fill in the report but not a full check and service.

Another example is I was asked to quote for a new pump on a boiler and was astonished to find that someone had quoted £25 to fit it??!! At this price I would not even break even on that job.

Come on guys sell on quality, service and reliability not price. You are not doing anyone, including yourself, any favours. Stop now and put your prices up to a decent level.

Too many people flooding this marketplace with no experience in gas or business. Stop this quick route to ACS. if pricing continues this way the job will not be worth doing. Get a grip! If people will not pay that price they will have no option if we all charge a decent level.

you cannot dictate anyons price structure, its not your business, as you may have more overheads than them, i have no mortgage, very little in the way of outgoings, and enough cash in the bank, so if i want to charge £30 for 45 mins work thats my business, however if you have proof that the whole safety check & service was carried out in 10 minutes, speak to the letting agent (you wont get any joy there) then try your luck with GSR (you wont get any joy there either unfortunately as there needs to be a problem and a report/invite made to GSR by the customer) obviously as i work in training i get drawn to the new start posts etc, flooding the market, and raping the market being 2 of the most recent, how many additional gas engineers have been added to you GSR register in your area in the last year? and of those how many are qualified competant engineers who have went SE and how many are new starts to the industry, i have a rough idea how many from Glasgow/Lanarkshire/West of Scotland have went through the bpec gas Foundation Course, but with all due respect i bet you dont, it isnt just new starts to the gas industry who are causing the problem, everyone is skint and therefore cutting back, talk to mechanics and ask how many services got done this year as oppossed to last, same with other trades as well, its a world recession, so cash is being kept for emergencies, and unfortunately boiler services have never and will never be deemed an emergency,
PS as you were discussing the work with an agent, can i assume you are self emplyed? if so do you mind answering why you are self employed as oppossed to emplyed, and whether you are a time served gas engineer or a time served plumber who sat ACS
cheers

 

[Deleted member 32524]

Sorry, Kirk. I bow down. You sound like the messiah. You know best.

 

[Deleted member 32524]

I did say maybe I should look at my own business. Probably do some training. Not blaming everyone but myself.

 

[kirkgas]

Sorry, Kirk. I bow down. You sound like the messiah. You know best.

haha is that your dummy ive just stood on!!
you have posted a valid and honest opinion, so have i dont take the huff, its all about opinions,
you didnt answer if you were a time served gas engineer, or like me a plumber who had the audacity to jump into gas and steal peoples livelyhood,
re everyone agreeing a price structure, i believe (and im sure someone will keep me right if im wrong) that it is illegal to set up pricing cartels, and even if it were possible to do it as soon as someone needed some quick extra dosh they would simply undercut, its pie in the sky to think that different firms can charge the same, i worked for a very large organisation doing social housing gas service and repair contracts and had 35 gas engineers working in the department, and even within the department we had vastly different running costs due to long termers getting super annuation payments of 11% of their top line being paid into their pension fund, and new starts getting different rates due to different contract structures, to finally the guys who completed the 6 month gas foundation course who all started on £10 per hour and got rises on individuall merit, so even within our department we had about 5 different pricing structures, so to get us to price the same as a self emplyed guy cannot happen, some of our subbies charged us less than we paid our own direct labour, but that was 5-6 yrs ago when some guys were getting paid way too much as there werent enough gas engineers ( i will get pelters for that comment but its the truth, that we paid some guys more than they were worth cause we couldnt get anyone else to replace them, and when we took on the gas foundation guys on £10 ph to do straight forward servicing a few of the old timers got a fright) they were happy to squeeze extra when the company couldnt really afford it and now some of them dont have a job there now as they have been TUPE'd away due to the firm giving the contract up as a non earner

 

[kirkgas]

I did say maybe I should look at my own business. Probably do some training. Not blaming everyone but myself.

training to diversify could be an option, but the basic economics are still there for your business, and as you rightly said there are loads of guys who simply do a cheap job and have no interest in professionalism or high standards, and TBH you will never be able (or want) to match them, education the landlords and agents is one way but TBH i beleive they know what the score is and think that if the gas firm is registered then they will take a hit on whatever happens, and as some have said before scarey as it is to say it, every now and again we need a wee incident to make people sit up and take notice, as long as it isnt us who cause the wee incident!!!!!

 

[Deleted member 32524]

Always been in gas never a plumber. I understand that not all in training courses are new. Most already work in the industry and may be doing illegal work and will be made safer when fully trained. All I would like is a little cohesion on price. You can do a job right or you can do it cheap. Cheap normally means make do. I have done both and I know which one makes me sleep well at night. To do a job right takes more in material and time. I can chuck a boiler up in a day, but to do it right down to dotting the i's and crossing the t's it takes 1.5-2 days, maybe more if they choose a powerflush too. Do I have to change? Start doing them in a day and charge less? forget about things like adding cleanser and inhibitor?

I am fully aware that I need to look at my own business model and adapt. However, lets not sell ourselves short. It takes a long time to learn and qualify. Costs a fortune every 5 years to resit. Registration every year. Insurances up in cost. Need I go on? It is time to put our prices up not down.

 

[Deleted member 32524]

You are right. I would not wish an accident on my worst enemy, but.... I was just ranting. Probably still am!! lol

 

[Deleted member 32524]

They paid them less cos they could. Large companies are encouraged to take on more employees. How to do that I wonder? Train more people, pay them less, employ more staff for the same cost. Job creation.

The little man should have more foresight. With the cost of all overheads, other than wage bills, are going up. It is not the time to put the price down it is time for it to go up. The GSR themselves recommended we think about a price increase.

 

[GQuigley67]

i can manage a boiler install in a day with cleansing and inhibitor, also done properly. I appreciate some take longer depends on different factors on the job, but I would charge accordingly when surveying the job, there are people out there installing boilers for around about the same i get being a self employed worker for a firm, crazy if you ask me.

i've been stung off a letting agent in glasgow for a boiler repair, would cost more taking them to court so not really worth it but I was charging the same rate corgi payed me to do repairs which was £40 per hour, wouldnt want to be doing it for any less really.

 

[gasmarc]

Prices are getting stupid for doing boiler changes 200 or £300 for a combi swap with the customer buying the boiler, stuff that for a game

 

[johnnyplumb]

You need to way up what the customer is like/wants, if they want cheap and cheerful, give them cheap and cheerful. If if they want a quality boiler, system cleaned & proper controls etc and are willing to pay for it, then price accordingly. customers are all different. you need to be adaptable in this game and if that means doing it the wrong way sometimes, then thats just too bad. i've seen plenty good plumbers failing because 'they only do it the right way'. Different if the customer wants something done thats dangerous, then tell them to be sensible life's too short as it is.

 

[kirkgas]

Always been in gas never a plumber. I understand that not all in training courses are new. Most already work in the industry and may be doing illegal work and will be made safer when fully trained. All I would like is a little cohesion on price. You can do a job right or you can do it cheap. Cheap normally means make do. I have done both and I know which one makes me sleep well at night. To do a job right takes more in material and time. I can chuck a boiler up in a day, but to do it right down to dotting the i's and crossing the t's it takes 1.5-2 days, maybe more if they choose a powerflush too. Do I have to change? Start doing them in a day and charge less? forget about things like adding cleanser and inhibitor?

I am fully aware that I need to look at my own business model and adapt. However, lets not sell ourselves short. It takes a long time to learn and qualify. Costs a fortune every 5 years to resit. Registration every year. Insurances up in cost. Need I go on? It is time to put our prices up not down.

fair points well made, but i do kow a lot of guys who will say 1.5-2 days for a boiler swap without powerflush is way too long, i have done full systems in less than that including cylinder and F&E tank, and when Tamz reads it he will add that he did a whole system in a day, properly, and well, but again we are all different, and im not having a go, but if it takes you 2 days to do a boiler install then thats ok if the customer wants/can pay for it, then thats fine but lots of customers want it done in a day, and lots of plumbers can do that no problem at all with everything doe properly

 

[CES]

I'm doing boiler installs occasionally, normally just swaps but with pipe work upgrades, new pumps, controls, condense lines etc. I find I usually manage to do it all in a day although I'm on my own and I price for a day and a half to cover any hiccups. I've been caught out too many times before with the governor going **** up when I'm commissioning and have to spend 2 or 3 hours waiting on Scot Gas Networks (or whatever they're called this week).

 

[Leo21]

Price fixing might be illegal but it doesn't stop the energy companies and petrol stations does it! Why can't we do it. As for your man only charging small amounts, selfish git! I'm ok stuff everyone else. Must really enjoy flaunting his superior intellect to his very lucky customers.

 

[kirkgas]

Price fixing might be illegal but it doesn't stop the energy companies and petrol stations does it! Why can't we do it. As for your man only charging small amounts, selfish git! I'm ok stuff everyone else. Must really enjoy flaunting his superior intellect to his very lucky customers.

bank robbery is illegal but done every day, why not do that instead? seriously we are looking at ways of increasing income legally, so i dot think it is practical for gas engineers to meet and sort out prices, sorry i dont agree that someone doing work is selfish, me or anyone else can decide for ourselves what price to charge, you want a flash van and a big office with staff and mad overheads, he works from home uses an oldish van and doesn't have any debt to speak of, whay should he charge his loyal customers more because you want a different things to him,

 

[Leo21]

My loyal customers are usually skilled people who appreciate good service and a good job. Iff you asked them to take less money because they had an oldish car and no overheads they would think you were mental. And I'm dam sure they wouldn't be happy to drop there standard of living because of some selfish individuals. As far as price fixing ofcom etc say it's not happening. Surely if we did it, it wouldn't be happening either.

 

[kirkgas]

My loyal customers are usually skilled people who appreciate good service and a good job. Iff you asked them to take less money because they had an oldish car and no overheads they would think you were mental. And I'm dam sure they wouldn't be happy to drop there standard of living because of some selfish individuals. As far as price fixing ofcom etc say it's not happening. Surely if we did it, it wouldn't be happening either.

sorry your twisting what im saying, i dont advocate ANYONE telling ANYONE ELSE what to charge or earn, but you are choosing to flip what i said,
what i meant to explain was that each person will decide what level of income they need based on their outgoings/requirements and wants, so the guy who drives a brand new van, rents a plush office/workshop in the better part of town, wants flash holidays and big cars needs more income than someone who doesnt want what i listed, (and before anyone says anything, i'm probably in the first group who want the bigger/expensive things so my charge would be higher, but thats my personal choice,
re price fixing, if you are happy to do it then organise it between you and all the other local guys, see how long it lasts if you can even get it off the ground, and some might say price fixing is in its own way selfish as you are forcing people to pay a certain level which is higher than they could normally get under free trade, my opinion is just that, my opinion, it means nothing to anyone except me, im not having a personal go at you or anyone else who differs from my opinion

 

[Leo21]

Fair one, can't argue with that. But how many times have been to a job and been told a ridiculously low price has been given. Be honest now, did you want to hit the roof ! I just think some people ruin it for the rest of us. Like you I'm a skilled grafter and want paying as one, as I have no other trades to turn to.

 

[kirkgas]

Fair one, can't argue with that. But how many times have been to a job and been told a ridiculously low price has been given. Be honest now, did you want to hit the roof ! I just think some people ruin it for the rest of us. Like you I'm a skilled grafter and want paying as one, as I have no other trades to turn to.

yes i agree that some people are charging too little to do the job properly but i honestly dont know how we resolve it, Trading Standards, the trade orgainsations, etc i just dont see them getting involved

 

[Leo21]

How about price fixing? Lol

 

[kirkgas]

How about price fixing? Lol

i'll start us off,

RS boiler service £60
OF boiler service £70
fit gas cooker (1m max pipe) £80
LGCS £50 (plus extra for appliances) (and deffo plus extra for appliance service)

 

[Leo21]

I like this, needs to be another £15 on the lgs though.

 

[kirkgas]

I like this, needs to be another £15 on the lgs though.

see thats my point, thats the 3L car costs kicking in,

 

[Leo21]

How do you know my cars a. 3L ?

 

[REDSAW]

is jib rates price fixing then?

 

[kirkgas]

How do you know my cars a. 3L ?

cause you need 65 for a LGSC

 

[grahamgas]

In a slightly different vein, to the OPs original comment about being too cheap, lets not forget the ones that are trying to blatantly rip off people.

Job today was to cut and cap a 15mm feed to a fire. Tee'd off of main 22mm pipe in cupboard right next to the fire, that also housed the meter.

So,Tightness test, remove and cap meter, cut and solder cap on, cooldown time, refit meter, test purge and light other appliance(boiler)

Was in there for a grand total of 28 minutes. Charged £35. The lady had another quote from someone else...... £150 plus vat.

Either I am too too cheap or the other guy had no scruples etc

Graham

 

[REDSAW]

your too cheap.
i thought there was more cost of living in p'mth than where i am yet i charge that to change a tap washer?.

then +£10 for gas work and registration etc..

 

[Kev the gas]

In a slightly different vein, to the OPs original comment about being too cheap, lets not forget the ones that are trying to blatantly rip off people.

Job today was to cut and cap a 15mm feed to a fire. Tee'd off of main 22mm pipe in cupboard right next to the fire, that also housed the meter.

So,Tightness test, remove and cap meter, cut and solder cap on, cooldown time, refit meter, test purge and light other appliance(boiler)

Was in there for a grand total of 28 minutes. Charged £35. The lady had another quote from someone else...... £150 plus vat.

Either I am too too cheap or the other guy had no scruples etc


IMHO Far to cheap fella.

I live/work near Worthing, min charge 1hour £ 55 plus vat, dont forget your travelling time/ diesel and other overheads ect.