Copper or 'Plastic'...??

[Jim Goodenough]

Just thought to kick this one off - both have their unique properties,; advantages & disadvantages...

Go-for-it... let's hear your arguments, stories etc

 

[townfanjon]

90%copper , 10%plastic

 

[Jim Goodenough]

tell us more

 

[townfanjon]

tell us more

Nothing to tell Jim , old school , coppers there for years . Plastic , Pffftttt well nuf said

 

[Jim Goodenough]

There's a beauty about copper, especially when it's fitted neatly.

Plastic has it's uses though.

 

[Riley]

Agreed all these alternative materials have their place

 

[king of pipes]

I am a copper man but plastic has it uses i only use hep 2o . cheers kop

 

[oz-plumber]

Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Most are derived from what the customer wants to pay.

 

[Best]

I think the argument against plastic is growing.
I see so many problems with it.
I detest that there are different brands of plastic pipe, each requiring their own make of pipe support.
I also hate the fact that plastic plumbing requires a high pressure test to make the grab rings bite (few ever bother doing this anyhow).
When plastic plumbing didn't exist there wasn't so many homes getting flood damage, due to fittings coming off.
Plastic plumbing is not cheap, although it can make some labour cheaper.
Compression joints on plastic damage the pipe where the olive bites.
Copper is more self supporting and plastic pipe is never straight.
Rodents eat the fittings and the pipe.
UV rays damage all plastic.
If a heating system overheats - the plastic will melt.
Disadvantages of copper are mainly it can corrode in certain water areas and soldering is a fire risk. Installing copper is normally no bother to a decent plumber, but can be slow and difficult to install long lengths of copper below floors etc.
Remember that many plumbers install copper and plastic, but nearly all cowboys use plastic.

 

[townfanjon]

I went to fit a shower door for a glass firm near us yesterday in a new wetroom , yes door !! Nothing to do with me lol .
When I originally measured up , the builder had just laid some poly in the ground and concreted on top of it , erm , how long will that last ??

 

[quality]

I think the argument against plastic is growing.
I see so many problems with it.
I detest that there are different brands of plastic pipe, each requiring their own make of pipe support.
I also hate the fact that plastic plumbing requires a high pressure test to make the grab rings bite (few ever bother doing this anyhow).
When plastic plumbing didn't exist there wasn't so many homes getting flood damage, due to fittings coming off.
Plastic plumbing is not cheap, although it can make some labour cheaper.
Compression joints on plastic damage the pipe where the olive bites.
Copper is more self supporting and plastic pipe is never straight.
Rodents eat the fittings and the pipe.
UV rays damage all plastic.
If a heating system overheats - the plastic will melt.
Disadvantages of copper are mainly it can corrode in certain water areas and soldering is a fire risk. Installing copper is normally no bother to a decent plumber, but can be slow and difficult to install long lengths of copper below floors etc.
Remember that many plumbers install copper and plastic, but nearly all cowboys use plastic.

Talking of flood damaged Ive been to a job this morning where a failed (full of water) expansion vessel had pulled itself of its wall fixings and then landed on the main return to a 500 liter buffer tank. All piped in copper but if it was plastic it may have flexed a little. I hate plastic by the way

 

[Best]

Talking of flood damaged Ive been to a job this morning where a failed (full of water) expansion vessel had pulled itself of its wall fixings and then landed on the main return to a 500 liter buffer tank. All piped in copper but if it was plastic it may have flexed a little. I hate plastic by the way

Yes the flexibility of plastic pipes and that the plastic fittings allow rotation sometimes has its uses.
A large radiator I went to pulled of a wall due to weak fixings and joints barely leaked due to the copper pipes connecting to centred pipes below, with a couple of plastic elbows that fortunately allowed the copper to rotate.
I know this thread is probably meant to be about plastic pipes and fittings, but another plastic plumbing item I hate is plastic ball valves /fill valves on toilet cisterns and tanks. They get hairline cracks. I just replace them with brass tailed valves.

 

[Chester]

i wouldn't have such a problem with plastic if it didn't look so awful, even clipped well it still looks pants. use it where you cant see it and its applicable and its fine.

 

[Bollod]

I think the argument against plastic is growing.
I see so many problems with it.
I detest that there are different brands of plastic pipe, each requiring their own make of pipe support.
I also hate the fact that plastic plumbing requires a high pressure test to make the grab rings bite (few ever bother doing this anyhow).
When plastic plumbing didn't exist there wasn't so many homes getting flood damage, due to fittings coming off.
Plastic plumbing is not cheap, although it can make some labour cheaper.
Compression joints on plastic damage the pipe where the olive bites.
Copper is more self supporting and plastic pipe is never straight.
Rodents eat the fittings and the pipe.
UV rays damage all plastic.
If a heating system overheats - the plastic will melt.
Disadvantages of copper are mainly it can corrode in certain water areas and soldering is a fire risk. Installing copper is normally no bother to a decent plumber, but can be slow and difficult to install long lengths of copper below floors etc.
Remember that many plumbers install copper and plastic, but nearly all cowboys use plastic.

A friend had his home flooded by a plastic fitting blowing off the plastic pipe. All fitted by an experienced plumber. Manufacturer said it had been fitted correctly and offered no explanation. We were unaware of the need for a high pressure test to set the grab rings, should this be standard practice? Would normal mains pressure not do this?

 

[Best]

A friend had his home flooded by a plastic fitting blowing off the plastic pipe. All fitted by an experienced plumber. Manufacturer said it had been fitted correctly and offered no explanation. We were unaware of the need for a high pressure test to set the grab rings, should this be standard practice? Would normal mains pressure not do this?

You would think normal mains pressure would be good enough, but apparently not.
I don’t use plastic really, so I don’t care, but my concern is where I have to uprate the pressure to original plastic push fit jobs, as don’t want to get the blame for a fitting coming off

 

[johnduffell]

Never heard of this grab ring malarky, I use speed fit, never had an issue, although I do break the manufacturer's recommendations and put a bit of silicone grease on the rubber rings.

 

[Stigster]

One thing I can say positive about John Guest at least (and I am a copper man through and through) is that they are seriously durable in my experience. Working in a trade school, we reuse our fittings as much as possible and through much experimenting I settled on JG pipe and fittings. They are demountable without tools, easy to replace O-rings (not really relevant outside college) and despite their constant use and re-use, I very rarely get one fail. I had the same elbows on my pressure test pump for 18 months, mounted and demounted literally hundreds of times and still holding all our pressure tests.

Other than that copper all the way. We still teach all apprentices to be highly competent in copper bending fortunately. It's up to them to carry that on in the field.

 

[Jim Goodenough]

I know this thread is probably meant to be about plastic pipes and fittings, but another plastic plumbing item I hate is plastic ball valves /fill valves on toilet cisterns and tanks. They get hairline cracks. I just replace them with brass tailed valves.

Hey yes, all fill valves for wc's should be brass tailed - how many hours have we spent fixing leaks to the nylon tailed ones... ban them I say.

 

[FG28]

Copper for sure but got too keep whacking in the plastic
Keeps the work flooding in as its rubbish
For sure it has its uses , i heard that over 10-15 yrs the expansion and contraction on the plastic in tight wooden joist holes will wear it away ? Not sure how true that is , but if it is , yrs yrs and yrs of leaks

 

[Best]

Copper for sure but got too keep whacking in the plastic
Keeps the work flooding in as its rubbish
For sure it has its uses , i heard that over 10-15 yrs the expansion and contraction on the plastic in tight wooden joist holes will wear it away ? Not sure how true that is , but if it is , yrs yrs and yrs of leaks

Probably the plastic pipes will wear through eventually if they are too tight to something. Doesn’t take much to cut plastic pipes. Although copper should also be carefully installed.

 

[JLS]

A friend had his home flooded by a plastic fitting blowing off the plastic pipe. All fitted by an experienced plumber. Manufacturer said it had been fitted correctly and offered no explanation. We were unaware of the need for a high pressure test to set the grab rings, should this be standard practice? Would normal mains pressure not do this?

All pipework should be tested really, for plastic there are two standard tests. I tend to stick with Type A which is fill to 1 bar and wait 45minutes recharging in that time if pressure drops. If no leaks increase pressure to 1.5 max working pressure for 15 minutes then release pressure to 0.5 max working pressure for a further 45 mins. The rationale for the low pressure test is that under pressure, expansion might make a seal hold but with it removed it could open up enough to leak. Always sounded a bit unlikely to me but just to be on the safe side I do it anyway.

 

[Scott_D]

All pipework should be tested really, for plastic there are two standard tests. I tend to stick with Type A which is fill to 1 bar and wait 45minutes recharging in that time if pressure drops. If no leaks increase pressure to 1.5 max working pressure for 15 minutes then release pressure to 0.5 max working pressure for a further 45 mins. The rationale for the low pressure test is that under pressure, expansion might make a seal hold but with it removed it could open up enough to leak. Always sounded a bit unlikely to me but just to be on the safe side I do it anyway.

Which manufacturer of pipe/fitting is this test for?

 

[JLS]

Which manufacturer of pipe/fitting is this test for?

It's from BS6700:2006 +A1 :2009 ....not that I've looked it up in there, it's just what we were taught in college

 

[Dw911]

I still cant belive people use it, new fangled stuff, and dont get me started on that plastic stuff.

Lead is the best material or black iron

 

[Mike Pinard]

I'm not a plumber by trade so don't use enough of either to really pass judgement but one observation occurs.
In the past ten years various friends and relatives have built several houses some plastic plumbed and some copper. The only two to have problems are both cases where for no reason a pin ***** hole had developed in copper pipe that must have been faulty manufacture. One cost many thousands of pounds as it flooded a tanked cellar.
I use a lot of various plastic around unheated out buildings and never had a problem and no way could i use copper there.
Also what to use in ufch?

 

[Plumbagain.]

Use plastic for ufch.
15mm and 22mm MLCP is great also for general plumbing.

 

[Best]

Underfloor heating is a different thing entirely, so can’t be compared to plastic pipe on rads or for high pressures etc.
Ufh uses different types of pipe and works on lower heat.

 

[kezz_123]

Copper way better Finnish if done correct.
Couple years back had to run hot pipe from one end of room to other at height and was a good few meters. (was in a butchers) . New when the hot went through the pipe it would look like the readings of a heart monitor . Clipped the pipe more than standard to of course.!

 

[Jim Goodenough]

Some may find this interesting - taken from Polypipes literature