Search the forum,

Discuss changes to legislation 2013 in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net

Status
Not open for further replies.
F

fuzzy

I keep being told that from 2013 any new installation will not meet standards if fitted with boiler alone, it will need some sort of renewable energy to supplement it. But I cannot find any literature to support this, can anyone help please? I presume its part L but cannot find where it says what Im being told?
 
hi fuzzy,

what r you being told? is it ALL new installations or 'new builds' installations. will it still be possible to do like for like swaps on existing properties?
 
hi fuzzy,

what r you being told? is it ALL new installations or 'new builds' installations. will it still be possible to do like for like swaps on existing properties?

was told new build, but surely it would follow for new installs?
 
dunno mate, but let us know what you find out!
there are still plenty of instances whereby 'old' things can be replaced like for like but are outlawed on newbuilds so will be interesting to see
 
I think as of 2013 all new build properties in Wales have to be zero carbon(no use of gas or oil). England is 2016. I am unaware of any plans to bring this into the retro fit Market yet! Boilers will be still be used for many years although the controls may get more complex and allow the boilers to work more efficiently.
 
Do you mean the Code for sustainable homes?
 
Code for Sustainable Homes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Its another rating system which affects mainly England and Wales. Not sure how mandatory it is, only read a little bit about it. From what I can gather its trying to improve overall efficiency of new homes with targets set at specific milestones. Not sure how they're supposed to be achieved though as it seems a little adventurous to me.
 
I think as of 2013 all new build properties in Wales have to be zero carbon(no use of gas or oil). England is 2016. I am unaware of any plans to bring this into the retro fit Market yet! Boilers will be still be used for many years although the controls may get more complex and allow the boilers to work more efficiently.

do you have links to this info please, thanks fuzzy
 
In 2010 Code level 3 compliance is mandatory for public and private sector new-build residences, including flats and houses, effectively making redundant the use of code levels 1 and 2.
Currently, compliance with higher levels of the Code is voluntary, with a long-term view for step-change increases. However, landowners and agents are already selling sites with stipulations to build at a certain Code level.
The extra-over cost of building to Code Level 3 is valued between around ÂŁ2000-3000, additionally the Code assessment costs around ÂŁ2000 for a small project, the total cost of this is typically under 5% of a standard build.[SUP][6][/SUP]
From 1st May 2008 it would be mandatory for all new homes to have a rating against the Code when houses are sold, it is mandatory for them to have an Energy Performance Certificate. If there has not been an assessment carried out, then a zero rating is given. This provides an incentive for developers to reach a higher rating. In fact more and more companies are including the Code and BREEAM in their corporate policy.
Code levels pertaining to energy require a Dwelling Emission Rate (DER) a certain percentage higher than the Target Emission Rate (TER) as set in Part L1A of the Building Regulations. October 2010 saw Part L TER standards rise equivalent to Code level 3. Since this change Code level 4 requires 25% DER improvement over Part L1A TER standards and code level 6 is 100% improvement i.e. thermally twice as efficient. It is also anticipated that the Building Regulations as well as the minimum mandatory Code level will continue to improve until the 2016 target of 'net zero CO[SUB]2[/SUB] emissions' per annum standard.
 
Last edited:
thanks for the informative post. but does it say anywhere that boilers alone are not enough to reach standards?
 
Fuzzy, the challenge to find the definitive answer to your question is just the sort of thing which interests me and I have been struggling to get my head around these changes so now seemed a good time to read up.
I am sure I must have the answer somewhere.
Conclusion I can not find the FULL answer, I do not know whether gas boilers will exist in a carbon neutral house but I think they might not. And the current target for carbon neutral new builds in England is 2016.
The general view seems to be Gas boilers will be around for decades in existing housing stock.

As I understand it the baseline for comparison is homes built to 2006 building regs standards.
By 2013 homes must produce 44% less co2 in Eng
In wales it must be 55% less and zero carbon for public sector by 2013
And new builds must produce zero carbon by 2016 in England.

But this does not necessarily mean no gas or oil, because it is calculated as net emissions.

I don't think there will be oil in new builds. WB say NEW oil boilers are likely to be around for many years to come but only as replacements for existing oil boilers.

WB seem to think heat pumps are the big thing for the future (and of course they are now promoting their ufh which goes well with heat pumps)
Where as Baxi Group seem to think it is Ecogen micro-CHP dual energy system and similar, which they are investing heavily in.

Manufacturers seem to think gas boilers will be around for a long time, I remember reading that recently in wb mag. And in 2050 75% of current housing stock will still be in use - and as you know most current homes have gch so it is likely to stay.

We have not been involved with any new biulds for a few years and things are changing fast.
 
thank you

i think heat pumps are a good source, so is solar.

gas has 60 years left, but will get so expensive well before then itll be game up sooner i feel

tbh the way forward has to be nuclear, make it safe and we cure all problems, but we will be out of work so keep it to yourself
 
Very interesting thread. I agree we will all have to delve into the renewable training before to long
 
:24:carbon neutral my bum!

talk about closing the door after the horse has bolted. too little to late.....the last time that this planet of ours could support our activities was 1989. for our current activities it is estimated we need about 3.5 earths to be sustainable.


as for nuclear, it never will be stable enough to offer a safe energy rich future it is just the nature of the beast.
harnessing the energy power of things like hydrogen would be greener cleaner options and is certainly possible.
 
I've heard an argument that ground source heat pumps aren't environmentally friendly.

The emphasis is on environment.

The argument goes as follows:

The ground source heat pump takes heat from the ground.
The ground around this heat source losses its heat to the pump (and attached house/building)
The ground, therefore, cools down.
This area, in the summer, will not be warm enough to sustain summer vegetation (things like dandelion, red campion, some grasses, etc, etc).
Therefore the insects that feed on this vegetation will not survive (in this area) and so will move to a warmer area
Pollination via insects will not take place to the demise of the plantlife
The seeds that the birds feed off from this vegetation will not be available so the birds won't eat them and they will move to another area
The birds that feed on the insects will starve unless they too move to a warmer area
So, is having a ground source heat pump really environmentally friendly?
 
:24:carbon neutral my bum!

talk about closing the door after the horse has bolted. too little to late.....the last time that this planet of ours could support our activities was 1989. for our current activities it is estimated we need about 3.5 earths to be sustainable.


as for nuclear, it never will be stable enough to offer a safe energy rich future it is just the nature of the beast.
harnessing the energy power of things like hydrogen would be greener cleaner options and is certainly possible.

hydrogen may be clean energy but how much energy does it take to split it from oxygen? and how do you provide that energy?
nuclear has killed less people per kw than any fossil fuel, shame it gets bad press.
 
The thread is going off on quite a tangent but must put my voice in.

From the point of view of running a business at aged 40+ my hubby and I only need to know what is going on for next 20-30 years.
Gas central heating with boilers will still be dominant for that time period.

My prediction
Electric heating will become bigger but still be minority for my working life time.
We need to focus on being heating (air con & ventilation) engineers, not just gas, it is a bigger picture.

Electric will power either heat pumps or UFH in most new homes and increasingly in refurbs - the future I think.
When I say heat pumps I think it will be air source to air or water that will be most popular as they are practical & cost effective to install in most properties - not gound source.
Air source heat pumps are good now much better than past but there is even better technology being developed - read up on USA websites for more about this technology.
And of course houses will be better insulated so less need for heating.


I don't know where that electric will come from but I do not think NUCLear is the only option I suspect there will be solar power PV panels on roofs for electric not for HW.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The thread is going off on quite a tangent but must put my voice in.

From the point of view of running a business at aged 40+ my hubby and I only need to know what is going on for next 20-30 years.
Gas central heating with boilers will still be dominant for that time period.

My prediction
Electric heating will become bigger but still be minority for my working life time.
We need to focus on being heating (air con & ventilation) engineers, not just gas, it is a bigger picture.

Electric will power either heat pumps or UFH in most new homes and increasingly in refurbs - the future I think.
When I say heat pumps I think it will be air source to air or water that will be most popular as they are practical & cost effective to install in most properties - not gound source.
Air source heat pumps are good now much better than past but there is even better technology being developed - read up on USA websites for more about this technology.
And of course houses will be better insulated so less need for heating.


I don't know where that electric will come from but I do not think NUCLear is the only option I suspect there will be solar power PV panels on roofs for electric not for HW.

Pv is very poor - the amount of elec we use pv dont even come close. there is a building in far east thats been built totally covered in pv and it still doesnt cover the energy use, so we cannot make a building a net provided of energy with pv

nuclear is the safest and cheapest afte capital cost form of energy, lots of bad press but imo the way to go

i dont believe gas is the dominant provider for 20-30 years
 
Pv is very poor - the amount of elec we use pv dont even come close. there is a building in far east thats been built totally covered in pv and it still doesnt cover the energy use, so we cannot make a building a net provided of energy with pv

nuclear is the safest and cheapest afte capital cost form of energy, lots of bad press but imo the way to go

i dont believe gas is the dominant provider for 20-30 years

Trying to predict the future here! Is it possible that PV technology will improve AND the electric machines we use in our homes will also improve to be less electric greedy? So in some perfect world in the future PV could meet the needs of the house?
 
true, the pv technology has a long way to go and they will improve but for now they are helpful but dont offer any significant benefit. Solar thermal is alot better though, about 25% of all heating/hot water can be supplied via solar on an annual basis
 
New stock:
2016 Zero carbon on all new builds(target)
2019 Zero carbon on all non-domestic premises (ambition)

Existing stock:
2030 Cost effective measures on all households (consultation proposal)
2050 Emissions from household(and business premises) reduced by at least 80% and as far approaching zero as possible (consultation proposal)
 
Sounds great but the problem is they're not building much new stock and nobody can afford it on their existing stock
 
Well as an industry standard it will be welcome. There's plenty of time to get ready. I was looking at the air source pumps today with an old teacher at the college. He was at some conference yesterday and the newer systems are easily installed. An easy option for clients when upgrading. I have a lot of faith in this that all's gonna be well. Solar panels and T-stores also easily done.

The whole system's in a state of flux right now. What's being said, rumoured is all changing and becoming more accessible. You need to stop gossiping and speculating and talk to someone who is influential and who is pro-plumbing.
My advice to anybody is to go to a 'good' training centre and have a good chat to the teachers. And I don't mean the fast track centres, somewhere that is involved with industry standards and has some clout. They are out there. I've been sworn to secrecy :)
 
Yes there's plenty of time to get ready what with the RHI being put off from 2010 till 2011 then 2012 then maybe 2013? I"m pro plumbing but after spending fortunes on training for renewables with the promise of unlimited amounts of work i'm a bit peeved to see large amounts of money pumped into solar PV with its 14% efficiency and sod all to support the wet trades.
 
I know that I hate the MCS and I am refusing to become MCS accredited but the experiance I am having working with heatpumps is that it is a fast growing industry and I woud hate for anyone to miss out on the amount of work that will be coming when the government finally pulls its finger out and finally introduces the RHI for domestic I agree that ground source on domestic is to costly and the focus will turn to air source.
But I feel that the MCS is actually damaging the take up for most heating companies, one is the physical cost of retrainning, two is this rediculous QMS, three is the fact that we have to join another layabout professional body, four is the fact that the RHI on domestic is constantly being delayed leaving uncertainty in the industry.

So in my opinion it is extremley important that the awarness of what is required to install renewables is made clear to the plumbing industry, now if the government had done this through one of the existing proffesional bodies the majority of the trade would now be aware of what is going on, Instead they have virtually tried to set up a completely new industry and it almost feels like they are trying to cut us heating engineers out of it. So if the government wants to reach its targets to avoid european fines in 2020 it needs to do something now to actually encourage us, instead of trying to alienate us by splintering our industry further
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Reply to changes to legislation 2013 in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net

Creating content since 2001. Untold Media.

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Back
Top
AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks useful features of our website. For the best site experience please disable your AdBlocker.

I've Disabled AdBlock