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Hi there, looking for some guidance here please.
Running a Baxi Solo boiler, which is located on the 1st floor of 3 storey property. There 17 rads in total 9 of which are on the ground floorbut 3 have never heated up at all. the pump is a SMC gold GP63. The 5 rads on the 1st floor and 2 rads on the top floor all heat up adequately.
Could the pump size be the problem here ?? if so what model/size pump should be installed ?? thanks in advance for your advice Cheers Ted
 
Pump could be weak...isit set on speed 3? A system thst size will need to be balanced adequately. Are the rads that dont heat up the furthest away?
 
It does sound like a pump issue but not necessarily size/duty.
It could be balancing, it could be a partially blocked pump.
 
Most likely needs bigger pump and balancing. 6m head applies against virtually no resistance. Whether it’s up or down it’s still the same beast. Grundfos UPS 25-80 good cost effective solution provided pipe sizing adequate in the first place.
 
You need to know the resistances of the index circuit to work out the pump size. I wouldn't recommend guessing it, you could create more problems.
You need to pay a Heating Engineer to look at this for you in my opinion.
 
Hi thanks for your replies, yes these 3 rads are the furthest away and appear to have been added on 15 years ago when the property was extended. All the pipework seems adequate ie 28mm 22mm 15mm.
The extra rads were all 15mm. so maybe the bigger pump would make sense. Would it be a straight replacement ie,not have to alter anything ?? cheers Ted
 
The 25/80 is slightly longer, i.e. 180mm as opposed to 150mm. So reasonably straightforward for competent person especially if pipework straight and pump at high level, just move pump valve to suit.
 
Good point. Would most likely benefit from sealing (not necessarily pressurising) to avoid air ingress/ pumping over issues as we have no detail of primary pipe work configuration.
 
Every heating system has the same issues with radiators at the end of the line not heating up as good as the ones at the start, especially with inverted systems. I can say for certain that buying a new state of the art 6 meter head pump will not solve your problem. It might improve it slightly for a short time but it will revert back to its present situation again.
To fix it you must first isolate the boiler fluctuation cycle from the radiators. The delta T in the radiators must be reduced significantly. Any competent Plumber that is keeping up to date with heating systems can do this for you.
 
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Hi there, looking for some guidance here please.
Running a Baxi Solo boiler, which is located on the 1st floor of 3 storey property. There 17 rads in total 9 of which are on the ground floorbut 3 have never heated up at all. the pump is a SMC gold GP63. The 5 rads on the 1st floor and 2 rads on the top floor all heat up adequately.
Could the pump size be the problem here ?? if so what model/size pump should be installed ?? thanks in advance for your advice Cheers Ted

Hi, before you go to the expense of buying another pump which may not improve anything, have a go at balancing the system. It really isn't difficult.
To see if it is a balancing problem, shut off all your other rads and see if the cold rads get hot. If they don't then you either have a blockage or the pump isn't man enough to overcome the resistance of the pipework. I would doubt that this is the case.
To balance the system, if you have TRV's take heads off. Start off by shutting all the rads that do get hot to half a turn open on the lockshield valve. The lockshield valves can go through about 4 to 5 turns fully open to closed but you get no regulation (valve authority) until the last turn. If you have any rads that you know heat up very quickly, you can probably set these to a quarter turn open.
You should now have something that resembles a rough balance.
After that it is just a matter of tweaking and rechecking to see what rads are hotter or cooler. Shut the system off and on a few times to see what rads heat up first. Its a bit of running around but and trial and error but like I said its not some great art.
If you have a temperture probe you can check the on and off temps across each radiator. You can get IR non contact guns with laser pointers for under a tenner if you can be bothered to do this. You need to have the same differential across each rad. So if you had one rad with 78c on and 73c off (5c degrees diff) and another that has 80c on and 60c off (20c degrees diff) the rad with the low 5c differential is getting too much flow. The water is traveling too fast to allow the transfer of heat. A 20c degree differential is ideal. This is the differential your boiler is design to work at.
Remember, the radiator that is in the same room as your thermostat wants to be the last one to be able to satisfy the room temp. If this rad is blasting out heat it will activate the stat and shut off the boiler before the other rooms are heated. This rad should never have a TRV fitted for the same reason but to the opposite effect. The rad will shut off and not let the stat operate and the boiler will run on and on until it shuts down through over heating.
If you get your system balanced you can probably turn your boiler down and save some money. Lots of people try to fix a poorly performing system by turning their boiler up.
You might want to check your water quality too. If your system is becoming sludged up the sludge will naturally collect where the water is at its slowest velocity. This will be in your radiators (check if any rads are cold across the bottom) or even in any pipework where the flow is struggling. If this is the case you may need to get you system flushed. I would recommend that you get a company that uses a thermal imaging camera to check that any blocked rads are cleared properly cleared. I've seen the jobs some companies do and it isn't adequate.
 
Ok Thanks for that info.. i will try the shutting off rads and leaving cold ones open and see the effects before buying a different pump.. and get back to you wonderful guardians
 
In post #6 the OP states that the three problem radiators are in an extension, and that they are fed by 15mm pipework. If that 15mm is feeding three large radiators, and even worse if it is tee'd off 15mm feeds to another radiator, it might be that the pipework cannot carry sufficient heat.

Have a look at the size and type of the radiators, and, if possible, whether they are fed of a 22mm / 28mm "spine" or if all feed and return pipework back to the original system is 15mm. If you are trying to heat more than about 8Kw of radiators off 15mm pipework that is likely to be the problem. Only realistic solution would be to increase the size of the pipework.
 
1. Why?
2. How would you do that?


Why?

The water within the boiler is constantly fluctuating in temperature. There is also 7°C to 8°C swing on the boiler temperature between cut in and cut out cycles even with modern modulating boilers. The water in the radiators also fluctuate 4°C to 5°C in temperature every few seconds. It can been clearly seen with the use of a thermal imaging video camera.
The above issues lead to pump resistance and a high delta T, therefore the radiators at the end of the line cannot heat efficiently.
There is an easy to install product available to address the above but unfortunately we are not allowed name specific products on the forum.
 
Fitting a bigger pump to overcome such resistance is cost effective and straightforward.
 
If it was as simple as fitting a larger pump, it would not be an issue as it could easily be sorted. A larger pump would only increase pump cavitation. To fix a problem first you must admit there is a problem and address it overall. At the end of the day all the installer should be concerned about is to have a system operating 100% for their customers, and not their own ego. There is only one way to sort it and that is reduce the delta T, and allow the system to function effortlessly, increasing its overall performance and output and give the customers the system they deserve and pay for.
 
Sounds to me you are a manufacturer trying to flog a gadget posing as a plumber?
 
I am a qualified plumber with 30 years’ experience in the business. I am just fed up with the inefficiencies in heating system. On forums like this every day people keep asking the same questions over and over again and the so called experts keep replying with the same old answers, change the pump, balance the radiators, and the most famous one of all POWER FLUSHING.
We are all around long enough to know that inverted system like this one cannot and will not operate efficiently. This is the reason why people have electric heaters in rooms because there radiators are not working. I do not like to see decent people who are looking for solutions to fix their heating being put to unnecessary expense by only giving them a temporary solution to a never ending problem.
The technology is here so we should embrace it and be glad that the ongoing problems can finally be resolved.
 
So where are you based? What makes your 30 years of experience more valuable than our 30 years? Why can’t you mention your technology if we should all know about it? I hate it when people try to flog expensive wigits or suggest power flushing trying to overcome inherent design problems other than offering practical cost effective solutions, too.
 
As you are aware on forums we are unable to mention products or company names which defeats the purpose really. I am not sure how the forum expect us to find the information but I suppose they want us to do our own research and hope for the best. I can say that my suggestion is not expensive, and is basically the same price as what some companies charge to power flush a system. In fact if something works the cost is irrelevant.
What make my experience unique is that I would not accept balancing, power flushing, bleeding radiators etc. as part of normal practice. I used that experience to source a solution whereas some Plumber’s with the same years of experience are happy to continue on and except these as normal.
 
I thought so. A theorist. And I do not agree with self promotion of this kind in forums. Suppose there are no rules against it in here?
 
im sorry tim what a load of tosh

your not the first with one of these "magic central heating boxes"

What is the Central Heating management System?

Excellent Tidy Job - Superseal

all thats in the box is a llh and company's are charging 4-8k (the magic box alone is anywhere from 1.5-2k plus an extra pump) to install one and quote half your heating bill

and the system still needs power flushing :D


another scam in a box
 
I am sorry too. You obviously do not know the situation here. I have nothing to do with magic, or superseal and their overpriced fake, inferior copy product. They are Patent infringers/thieves hiding behind a chain of companies with virtually no knowledge in heating. They are just a bunch of hard-nosed sales people and are causing serious damage to our market by using Oxyvent information to sell their fake product. Despite numerous requests to have their illegal marketing removed they refuse to do so. They are extremely cunning on the web for twisting the truth and linking me to magic to confuse people. I am continuingly trying to distance myself from them but they are devious and keep removing and republishing stuff. It is obvious they are trying to destroy our market, but I am sure people can see right through their scam.
It shows that Oxyvent does work otherwise they would not invest money and time trying to copy it. By the way this is the second time a company copied my idea and put millions into it. I dealt with them in The High Court and put a stop to their actions. So here we go again.
I am a Plumber who invented a product back in 2000 to give an efficient, maintenance free heating system. Oxyvent reduce the Delta T and the cost is similar to that of a power flush and not a rip off. So if any of you come up with a brilliant idea, go sleep it off. It is a nasty world and it is just not worth the hassle and torture to pursue your dream.
 
Even tho I'm your vid it says before you start have the system power flushed :D

Why do you want to reduce the delta

And how much is your magic box ?
 
This is a typical example of the damage and confusion magic are causing.
Who said before you start have the system power flushed?

I do not know the price of the magic box as I have made it clear that I have absolutely nothing to do with them.

By reducing the Delta T in the radiators the top and bottom of the radiator is at a more uniform temperature, producing higher temperatures at floor level. It also removes thermal shock from the system.
 
This is a typical example of the damage and confusion magic are causing.
Who said before you start have the system power flushed?

I do not know the price of the magic box as I have made it clear that I have absolutely nothing to do with them.

By reducing the Delta T in the radiators the top and bottom of the radiator is at a more uniform temperature, producing higher temperatures at floor level. It also removes thermal shock from the system.

It's in your fitting video :D

No I mean how much did your box ?

And your boiler doesn't condense as much if you lower the delta that much (2dc as your system says)
 
I have absolutely nothing to do with magic or their fake videos. You are obviously obsessed under the magic spell. Check OXYVENT on YouTube and see for yourself.
I have a certified pressure vessel The Oxyvent Tank and not a gimmick magician’s box. For your information it is the world’s first certified pressure vessel of it is kind with TUV certification. The set up process cost €250,000 (one of the reasons why I say do not pursue your idea). We have a good incentive trade price for Plumbers and therefore it would be unprofessional to give a price publically. When the plumber install the Tank we then assist him to give the customer the new Delta T and address any concerns he may have. We don’t just sell a product and walk away like others. We see it through so that the householder can enjoy a superefficient maintenance free system. This is all about job satisfaction and customer care and not just greed that is why we are different.

I never said that Oxyvent reduce the delta T in the boiler. This is typical people jump straight in with condemning comments and have no idea what they are talking about. My advice to you is do a bit of research on the Oxyvent site before you jump to conclusions. I said that it reduces the delta in the radiators. The boiler cycle remains the same therefore the delta T in the boiler is controlled by its own stat. The advantage been that the boiler temperature can be reduced down to 60°C. Oxyvent system is the only system that can keep the boiler in full condensing mode 100% of its operating time whilst reaching higher temperature at floor level, giving higher comfort levels to householders.
 
So your not in the video in my post above, with your business partner????

And if it's more than £400 it's not worth it
 
I stand alone and do not and never had a business partner. I presume from your comment you charge £400. For a power flush. You are saying it is better to pay £400 every 2 or 3 years and your customer must tolerate cold rooms, and the usual inefficiencies, whereas we give the customer a maintenance free system with higher comfort in their home with no continuing expense. Do you mean that paying £400 for a power flush is better value than having higher temperatures at floor level, saving fuel, lower boiler temperatures, higher thermal comfort and maintenance free? That is not good customer service and only exploits the customer for maintenance work.
 
Well the video must be wrong even has both your names as the inventors

And £400 for your heating box / system

And with correct td levels and an air sep you wouldn't need power flush / touch the system for 10 + years
 
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