Anybody seen this on thermodynamics

[wazzer]

Dear Solar Thermal Installer

MCS has recently become aware of a number of products that are being sold into the UK market with Solar Keymark approval specified as Thermodynamic Panels that initially would appear to fit into the scope of MIS3001. In most cases these collectors are typically filled directly with a refrigerant.
Following a significant number of calls into MCS we are aiming to clarify with the manufacturers the technical aspects of this product type and whilst this work is being undertaken we urge installers to consider the following in relation to any such system:
1. Is all of the necessary data present to complete section H of SAP to determine the estimated annual contribution of the system – we have identified some systems where this data is not present
2. Do the collectors and associated heatpump have the required regulatory approvals in relation to its construction and performance – a heatpump certified to EN14511 may fulfil these requirements, MCS 020 may also need to be considered.
3. When undertaking the installation of any product that requires the composition of and / or connection into a Fluorinated Gas transfer pipe, do all of the appropriate operatives hold the necessary qualifications / registrations to undertake this work? Please note that this is a legal requirement.
4. Have you clarified with your certification body that your certification covers the type of work potentially being undertaken, especially in relation to the use of refrigerant gases?
MCS is working with the manufacturers and is seeking to clarify whether and how these systems may fit into the MCS scheme, in the meantime we strongly advise that you carefully consider if any and all of the above criteria, along with any other scheme requirements can be met when fitting these types of system. At present there is no formal acknowledgement that these products will be included within the RHI.
It is essential to be aware that if the systems are found not be compliant with the MCS scheme then the MCS installation certificate may become invalid and the customer and subsequently yourselves would then be disadvantaged. At the moment, we have not yet taken the decision to suspend the registration of these products with the Scheme until we have had further discussion with the manufacturers, however, please note that this may be an action that is taken until the requirements for the Scheme can be specified fully. We will be emailing all installers again as soon as we have concluded our research into these types of products
Thank you,

 

[wiggers1]

Also the cylinders supplied with these panels are not WRAS approved.

 

[markfxy]

theres a couple of threads on the sparky forum about these apparently the cop is really poor and yes they might not be eligible for rhi

 

[wazzer]

How could they get in the country or be registered with building control if not WRAS approved they have been fitted for about 2 years now

 

[wazzer]

Thought as much [DLMURL="http://www.energie.pt/en/news/energie-is-awarded-a-certificate-of-excellence-in-the-united-kingdom/"]Energie Energia Solar Termodinmica - News - ENERGIE IS AWARDED A CERTIFICATE OF EXCELLENCE IN THE UNITED KINGDOM[/DLMURL]

 

[wiggers1]

In the Energie range. Only the 280L is WRAS approved.



From: [email protected]
To:
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 12:17:51 +0100
Subject: RHI - thermodynamic panels CRM:0048082

Dear Mr



Thank you for your enquiry regarding the eligibility of thermodynamic panels under the Renewable Heat Incentive (RHI) scheme.



Following discussions with the Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) the conclusion is that these solar thermodynamic panels probably would not qualify under the RHI as a ‘solar thermal system’ as firstly they work more like a ‘passive’ air source heat pump than a solar thermal system; and secondly they do not meet the regulation requirements The heat produced by the solar thermal part of the system is being used by the ‘heat pump’ thus is not producing eligible heat under section 3(2) of the regulations as it is not used for heating a space, heating water or carrying out a process. It is instead fed into the compressor which in turn produces the usable heat.



DECC were keen however to emphasise that they are supportive of this technology in principal and so will be looking further into the costs etc with a view to potentially introducing an appropriate tariff in future.



I note that although at this stage we are minded not to regard this as an eligible technology under the RHI, unless we received an application under the RHI scheme we would not be in a position to make a definitive technical and legal assessment on this point.



Kind regards,



Jamie

RHI Team

Ofgem

0845 200 2122

 

[eaton]

Had that letter last week, yes the energie systems are not wras approved, you can buy Combi safety inlet valve and Prv etc to make it ok. I don't think they'll get anywhere near rhi which is why I'm holding fire, it's not a glazed unit which is what they class as thermal. Think mcs have been caught completely flat footed with these. Had 2 people I know see unit and ones fitted a couple. Both very impressed but cylinders are huge, plus fgas needed. Biggest issue is no one has any info on running cost of heat pump in cylinder as that could cost more than immersion heater

 

[wazzer]

Had that letter last week, yes the energie systems are not wras approved, you can buy Combi safety inlet valve and Prv etc to make it ok. I don't think they'll get anywhere near rhi which is why I'm holding fire, it's not a glazed unit which is what they class as thermal. Think mcs have been caught completely flat footed with these. Had 2 people I know see unit and ones fitted a couple. Both very impressed but cylinders are huge, plus fgas needed. Biggest issue is no one has any info on running cost of heat pump in cylinder as that could cost more than immersion heater

Not WRAS approved did you not see the link.....Energie Energia Solar Termodinmica - News - ENERGIE IS AWARDED A CERTIFICATE OF EXCELLENCE IN THE UNITED KINGDOM

Read more: http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/r...nybody-seen-thermodynamics.html#ixzz29ukydQc8

 

[eaton]

Didn't read to be honest, they have 2 types of cylinders, bloke who visited warehouse other week said they didn't have it

 

[wazzer]

There are 25 different Cylinders.

 

[eaton]

Really, heard energie do 2 types, a heavy metal one and a lighter one, then there's 3 size options, I make that 6. As said I've never seen it its just what others have said

 

[wazzer]

eaton I have a full price list I can send you if you want

 

[eaton]

Yeah please do cheers.

[email protected]

 

[eaton]

You fitted any then? Big deal breaker is obviously rhi which isn't going to happen for them under thermal, and cost to run heat pump

 

[wazzer]

I am starting advertising them at the start of November I have my C+G 2079/unvented/WRAS .....you dont need F gas for these Domestic Hot Water Systems, Under Floor Heating, UFH, UK, Scotland, Ireland, Wales - Earth Save Products Ltd

 

[eaton]

Never seen anything like it

 

[peteheat]

I am starting advertising them at the start of November I have my C+G 2079/unvented/WRAS .....you dont need F gas for these Domestic Hot Water Systems, Under Floor Heating, UFH, UK, Scotland, Ireland, Wales - Earth Save Products Ltd

The figures don't make sense, we spent a lot of money having these and the Energia systems tested, the results were anything but those manufacturers claimed, when presented with our figures they broke off communications.

My advice is save your money on advertising unless the manufacturers are willing to cover your costs and take the call backs from the home owners.

 

[eaton]

You have any idea on the energie run cost of the heat pump, I think this cost is the ultimate point of if it works or not

 

[peteheat]

You have any idea on the energie run cost of the heat pump, I think this cost is the ultimate point of if it works or not

Yes though I will not post expensive test results on an open forum, questions to ask are recovery times with the immersion disconnected, but they can't really give them to you because the system will not work without the immersion, the same immersion you don't see advertised.

 

[peteheat]

Hi,

An update that I have not had time to confirm also the source is a company who in my opinion engage in some questionable marketing for example I have never seen their systems produce anything like they claim.

That said I would be surprised if they are bending the truth on the subject of Thermodynamics and the MCS.

Thermodynamic Solar Panels suspended from Government scheme « Surface Power Solar Thermal Blog

 

[phj]

I have seen the Energie system before and don`t think it is really designed for our weather in the UK. There is another system out there now that is just being launched. It does heating and hot water and there is also a hybrid system they do. I can heat the water up to 80 degrees which as you will know is about what you need to work with normal radiators. T

 

[peteheat]

Appears MCS made the right decision Here

Any manufacturer / system that has to use a play on wording is to say the least dishonest, with existing customers being given the option of either keeping the system or getting full refunds.

I expect they will have some job trying to convince the MCS about the validity of the COP figures of their heat pumps.

I have seen the hybrid systems they have been around a while now, a little more honest than the above but credibility has been damaged.

 

[tomplumbuk]

Had that letter last week, yes the energie systems are not wras approved, you can buy Combi safety inlet valve and Prv etc to make it ok. I don't think they'll get anywhere near rhi which is why I'm holding fire, it's not a glazed unit which is what they class as thermal. Think mcs have been caught completely flat footed with these. Had 2 people I know see unit and ones fitted a couple. Both very impressed but cylinders are huge, plus fgas needed. Biggest issue is no one has any info on running cost of heat pump in cylinder as that could cost more than immersion heater

​

 

[eaton]

Mate fitted one in his, he's a solar guy with fgas, he has a electric meter just for this, says its costing 50p a day on average to run. He's more impressed than he thought he'd be. He's holding back as no mcs though

 

[Mech]

The figures don't make sense, we spent a lot of money having these and the Energia systems tested, the results were anything but those manufacturers claimed, when presented with our figures they broke off communications.

My advice is save your money on advertising unless the manufacturers are willing to cover your costs and take the call backs from the home owners.

I am currently producing a study (for my Building Services degree dissertation as well as for for the company I work for who are involved with the installation of Energie systems) on whether or not 'thermodynamic' solar panels have potential in the UK sector.

I would be grateful if you (or anyone involved with these systems - good and bad) could send me any efficiency data you have collected (please note you will be referenced in the study).

my email address is [email protected] I will gladly send you across a copy of the study once complete.

Regards