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Discuss 2 showers 1 pump - problems ! in the Bathrooms, Showers and Wetrooms area at UKPlumbersForums.co.uk.

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  1. jamessalamon

    jamessalamon New Member

    Please help.

    I have a bathroom with a shower and an en-suite with a newer shower fitted. Both are supplied by one positive head shower pump 2.0bar.
    If i turn on the shower in the bathroom - no problem.
    If i turn on the shower, or assessory attachement in the ensuite - nothing.
    If I'm really lucky I can place the assesory attachment on the floor and it drains enough water to create movement and the pump starts. But ususally the only way is to suck on the assesory pipe !
    It's a new pump (as the old one 18months old broke) .. its worked occessionaly but not now ? What should I do?

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  2. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs S. Mod Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    Need a neg head pump as you've gone over

    Lack of flow is your problem
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Ric2013

    Ric2013 Plumber

    If that installation isn't a DIY job, then you need to find yourself a new plumber, by the way.
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. king of pipes

    king of pipes Trusted Plumber GSR

    Maybe this will help you your install is poor at best and will never run 2 showers at the same time you need to tick all the boxes in the left hand column. And allow 50 gallons per bathroom of stored water . all the best kop

    Screenshot_2018-03-22-19-51-10.png

    Screenshot_2018-03-22-19-58-16.png
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. jamessalamon

    jamessalamon New Member

    Hi Everyone; thanks so much for your help already. This install is an inherited install (it was here when i moved in) so, i guess its partly DIY partly pro.
    I agree its not an 'ideal' installation, but its what I have and I need to make the best of it without spending a fortune.
    The cold water tank is in the roof so its definately higher then the highest shower head. I would say that the install does meet most if not all of the factors on the list, water capacity is not a problem... I can and do have both showers running at the same time... but that's not the issue.
    The issue is that the oldest and most simple suface mounted mixed shower (familt bathroom) will switch the positive 2.0bar pump on the second you turn the tap. The newly installed (replacement for an existing shower) shower in the ensuite will NOT switch on the shower .. its like its allowing air into the shower head and though the mixer .. lowering the level of the water.. so when you turn on the tap .. the shower doesnt 'know' you have demended water... if you suck the hair washing flexiable pipe .. the pump will start. Or you can open the taps in the ensuite (that doesnt work) then go to the family bathroom (that does work) , turn on a tap - pump is activated .. switch off the tap and return to the ensuite - shower is now useable...

    I'm unclear how the negative pump might solve the issue . how does the water get 'pulled through' the pump if the ensuite shower's water level wont even allow it to flow out... it feels like I need a remote swtch to turn on the pump before i turn on the tap to the shower ? thanks again for all you advise!!
     
  6. Riley

    Riley Plumber GSR

    Negative will detect change in pressure universal will detect flow. Trust these guys they know what they’re talking about and the system is wrong
     
  7. Ric2013

    Ric2013 Plumber

    Okay. I don't know that we're sure it's a negative head situation, from the fag packet sketch the OP has given us. If the cold water tank feeding the cold side and the cistern is in the loft, then I would say we have a positive head situation?

    Could it be that the new shower has check valves incorporated or on the pipework that are not being opened by the static water pressure and that, therefore, until the pump kicks in, there is nil flow? I once had a problem install where I had about a metre head and had fitted a single checkvalve to a mixer (as required by the regs) but didn't check the minimum head required by the valve manufacturer. The valve worked for 6 weeks and then started to jam shut unless you sucked it open, so could be that the OP has a similar problem?
     
  8. jamessalamon

    jamessalamon New Member

    Hi Ric2013 - Your comments make a load of sense to me (as a non plumber!). to me the highest 'thing' i have is the cold water tank. The pump has been say in the same set up for perhaps 10+ years... the only changes are - a refitted en-suite with a nice new mixer in the wall )fitted about 1 year ago and probably used 20 times before the pump broke. Then a replacement pump (more powerful) which worked about 10 times... now it will only work on the older bathroom not the en-suite.
    As the previous pump burnt our quite quickly, I did moan at the previous plumber about the install and advised him that it needed a direct feed from the cold water tank in 22mm copper pipe which he added . is this where a 'check valve' might be ? or somehere else ? sorry ! happy to receive a pm.. thanks james
     
  9. Harvest Fields

    Harvest Fields Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    Simple question have you checked the filters and non returns in the bar mixer shower?
     
  10. Riley

    Riley Plumber GSR

    It could be the case and I know you’re looking for the inexpensive fix but based on that install pipework I bet it’s not plumbed in correctly. Hence the pumps burning out or losing effectiveness. If you could show us pics of the top of the cylinder connection etc then we can give a proper opinon. So are we to understand that the pump doesn’t have a cold feed from the cwsc?? THe fact the previous pump lasted 10 years could be more luck than anything. Get the install right now then you will have the cover of a manufacturer warranty, which you certainly won’t have if it’s piped wrong. In addition based on the fag packet drawing it could be negative it could be positive it will all be based upon the amount of height between the base of the cwsc and the head of the highest shower
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2018
  11. Harvest Fields

    Harvest Fields Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    I agree mate. Had to mention it though. But I do think you are right.
     
  12. Ric2013

    Ric2013 Plumber

    A lot of us don't tend to do PMs on here as the point is to provide material that can, eventually, help others so I'll stay on the open forum.

    In your photo, I can see see you now have a 22mm cold feed on the right. Not a work of art, but should work if connected correctly to the cold water tank. Probably the plumber did what he could while working around the existing installation.

    I don't see the same on the hot feed on the left, but, arguably, it's a short pipe run and not quite so important (we could do with a photo). I would expect insufficient pipe size on the hot inlet would reduce pump life, but I would not expect use of 15mm would stop the pump switching on.

    My point is, I don't think the plumbing we can see in your photo is the cause - perhaps the fault is elsewhere? Checking the filters on the shower could well be a good shout.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. jamessalamon

    jamessalamon New Member

    Hi - thanks everyone for sticking with this ! So . I’ve posting here another pick of the tank and pump install . but my feeling is that it’s good enough and isn’t causing the issue with one shower able to switch on the pump and the newer in wall shower not switching it on.

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    A66FED1E-717F-426F-B59A-F4A033D111FF.jpeg
     
  14. Harvest Fields

    Harvest Fields Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    What about a pick of the shower unit?
     
  15. jamessalamon

    jamessalamon New Member

    I started taking the block apart to try and work out of there is anything wrong . but I made a discovery .. if I tighten the flow rate screws up . then the shower will turn on the pump .. it will hold the water while it’s off and turn it on again . it will even work for an hour or so with no flow .. but after a while . it doesn’t work again !! To me it ‘feels’ like air is flowing into the block and the water level is dropping . then when you turn it on . it doesn’t ‘sense’ that you have opened the tap and does nothing ?! Does that make any sense ? Here is some picks of the shower in question..
     
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