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Advice needed............

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hi guys,

I am about to Install soon a huge system. I just wanted to make sure that I am able to install a system boiler in the celler.

Could you please tell me is I am able to fit a system boiler in there with a flue going throwing like the current one? Or would that be enough just sticking through the wall ?

I assume second option won’t work as it will need diverting correct ?

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What's the gas meter ?
 
I just wanted to find out if I can install a normal flue through the wall ? Or do I need to extend the flue like in the picture ? What would be the best option for me? I am ripping all out and install a new little plant room with a low loss header etc. I am just concerned about the flue
 
What do you think also why haven't you calculated the gas load 45kw boiler takes 5m3/h hope they don't have any other appliances
 
ShaunCorbs said:
What do you think also why haven't you calculated the gas load 45kw boiler takes 5m3/h hope they don't have any other appliances
Click to expand...

I did not calculate it because that’s not the problem they have got.

Unfortunately, they have got oven too.
The last builders didn’t know how to install the whole lot.

They have got in 3 stores ( top floor/1st floor/ groundlfoor ) full ufh and a couple of radiators installed.

Boiler isn’t capable of heating ufh neither the radiators nor ufh - it is all like warm. Boiler runs on 85c constantly.

It that’s not the point I o my wanted to find out if I can install the flue just through the wall or do I need to extend it.

If you ask me I would say diverting as the old one.
 
What are you fitting
What dies the manufacturer say about flue positions?
 
Matchless.plumb said:
I did not calculate it because that’s not the problem they have got.

Unfortunately, they have got oven too.
The last builders didn’t know how to install the whole lot.

They have got in 3 stores ( top floor/1st floor/ groundlfoor ) full ufh and a couple of radiators installed.

Boiler isn’t capable of heating ufh neither the radiators nor ufh - it is all like warm. Boiler runs on 85c constantly.

It that’s not the point I o my wanted to find out if I can install the flue just through the wall or do I need to extend it.

If you ask me I would say diverting as the old one.
Click to expand...

Still doesn't matter you need to calculate the load as you could leave a dangerous appliance if the gas meter and line can't take it

Just hope all the other appliance total to less than 12kw else your boiler instal is a no go

How isn't the boiler able to heat the ufh and rads ?? turn the boiler stat down to 70 etc also did you heat loss the house to make sure 45 kw is acceptable as that might be the issue

What about different pressure zones
 
The original flue does look abit excessive. Judging by the picture you have given I would say you still will need a plume kit for the new one! What I don't understand tho is how they have given the go ahead for you to start from scratch.
 
Gasmk1 said:
is 22 mm big enough if 4 metres from boilerwith an oven as well
Click to expand...
scott_d said:
What are you fitting
What dies the manufacturer say about flue positions?
Click to expand...
I will give you an exact update tomorrow what I am going to fit as I am planning what products I will use. I a, pretty sure it’s system boiler ( Vaillant ), cylinder of Vaillant, etc... precise stuff will be discussed tomorrow.
 
That cylinder doesn't even look that old...they must have bottomless pockets. Looks like a decent job tho. Need to calculate the boiler size correctly tho.
 
ShaunCorbs said:
Still doesn't matter you need to calculate the load as you could leave a dangerous appliance if the gas meter and line can't take it

Just hope all the other appliance total to less than 12kw else your boiler instal is a no go

How isn't the boiler able to heat the ufh and rads ?? turn the boiler stat down to 70 etc also did you heat loss the house to make sure 45 kw is acceptable as that might be the issue

What about different pressure zones
Click to expand...
Wow wow ,,hang on for a second, I think you misunderstand me mate.

I did not install the boiler ... I am going to change the whole installation.

The issue is that the pressure in the property drops in 24h on ufh or ch.

I have isolated both zones in turns and both drops within 24h which indicates that the leak could be caused by the old hot water cylinder. I have check the heat exchanger which is ok siphon is dry too ... no excessive condensation.

The system is clearly wrong designed.

However, I will upgrade the gas pipe if I know it’s undersized. I won’t leave my customers in a dangerous environment trust me there. I know how to run my business.
 
i would say boiler is leaking if anything

and how is it designed wrongly?

gas pipe isnt the issue meter is could be
 
Just looked at the photos again...am I right in saying there is a 1" and 1/2 bypass on that system???
 
Gasmk1 said:
is 22 mm big enough if 4 metres from boilerwith an oven as well
Click to expand...
I will upgrade the pipework to 28mm but that won’t be the problem. The system is just badly designed and not calculated properly. I only wanted to come on here to ask how to sort the flue out but instead getting criticised and questioned ...

Instead of criticism... point me in the right direction what you experienced people would check and do.

I understand where shaun is coming from and agree that the workload is important. But just guide me instead being so weird. I don’t know perhaps it’s the English way again but comes across a little weird.
 
ShaunCorbs said:
i would say boiler is leaking if anything

and how is it designed wrongly?

gas pipe isnt the issue meter is could be
Click to expand...
Boiler is new and not leaking checked it all. What you mean is not wrong designed? Don’t you think a low loss header should be installed ? What about the small pump shaun :) the pump is a joke for a property of 300m2 ... I don’t understand your questions. What you mean the meter could be an issue ?
 
Matchless.plumb said:
Boiler is new and not leaking checked it all. What you mean is not wrong designed? Don’t you think a low loss header should be installed ? What about the small pump shaun :) the pump is a joke for a property of 300m2 . I don’t understand your questions. What you mean the meter could be an issue ?
Click to expand...

The boiler is 11years old? Could the leak not be the heat exchanger? I think Shaun is saying that the G4 meter is only capable to pass 6m3/h of gas ...that boiler uses 5m3/h so the additional oven appliance could bring it dangerously close to being overloaded, all on 22mm pipe.However I do think it's a system design issue.
 
Matchless.plumb said:
Boiler is new and not leaking checked it all. What you mean is not wrong designed? Don’t you think a low loss header should be installed ? What about the small pump shaun :) the pump is a joke for a property of 300m2 . I don’t understand your questions. What you mean the meter could be an issue ?
Click to expand...

a low loss header of sorts is already installed and the pump is a commercial one that should be big enough, the boiler is/ was installed in 07 but if its not the issue why are you replacing it?

you have 4.4 m3/h just for the boiler (45kw) you cant go above 6m3h with your total load which leaves you around 12-13kw for you other gas appliances

what else you they have and what kw rating are they
 
ShaunCorbs said:
a low loss header of sorts is already installed and the pump is a commercial one that should be big enough, the boiler is/ was installed in 07 but if its not the issue why are you replacing it?

you have 4.4 m3/h just for the boiler (45kw) you cant go above 6m3h with your total load which leaves you around 12-13kw for you other gas appliances

what else you they have and what kw rating are they
Click to expand...
I disagree in regards to the bypass being a low loss header. The boiler was installed not even 2 years ago that means that leak was before there too ... the customer does not want the boiler she always wanted Vaillant but the previous company said it would not work. I don’t not need such a big boiler... the customer has another gas hob but I did not check the output...
I agree in terms of the 6m3 h ... it’s definitely system problem
 
In terms of the flue, i generally rely on the manufacturers data for lengths, bends, pressure drop etc. If i had any concerns i would design the flue then call the manufacturer to go through the calculations,
hope this helps
 
i think either another keston or a vaillant as vailant flues can be run outside. most other manufacturers the flues cannot. you sound like you want to know if you can get away with a plume kit. i think your best couse is to get a boiler rep to meet you there to discuss fluieng options. if you are changing the boiler.
 
Gasmk1 said:
i think either another keston or a vaillant as vailant flues can be run outside. most other manufacturers the flues cannot. you sound like you want to know if you can get away with a plume kit. i think your best couse is to get a boiler rep to meet you there to discuss fluieng options. if you are changing the boiler.
Click to expand...
I personally wouldn’t put a Vaillant flue outside (elbows & extensions). Have you seen the state of one after 4 years. Our flues can be ran externally my a**e:D
 
Harvest Fields said:
Not commercial mate. That might be the issue.:D:D
Click to expand...

Have a look at them anyway. They're very nice n neat.

Whilst we're on that Commercial comment, have you got your commercial ticket Matchless?
I know that the meter is a U6 and the other rules and regs I am well aware of too but if the Boiler manufacturer class an appliance as Commercial you might not be qualified and therefore not insured when/if you install it.
Worth a thought!

I am also wondering why a house as you've described needs 153500 Btu's/hr? (45kw)
Is it really that big?
As Shaun said earlier, I would be having a measure up to make sure.

I also think that the section between flow and return will act more like an open by-pass than a low loss header due to it's design. That could cause issues with short cycling (in my opinion).
Maybe that's why the boiler is always at high temp and the system isn't making it?
(Sammathias said same).
 
I service lots of what should be light commercial boilers because the manufacturers say they are domestic. Winds me up. But then then again it’s extra money so I shouldn’t complain.:D:D
 
Last Plumber said:
Have a look at them anyway. They're very nice n neat.

Whilst we're on that Commercial comment, have you got your commercial ticket Matchless?
I know that the meter is a U6 and the other rules and regs I am well aware of too but if the Boiler manufacturer class an appliance as Commercial you might not be qualified and therefore not insured when/if you install it.
Worth a thought!

I am also wondering why a house as you've described needs 153500 Btu's/hr? (45kw)
Is it really that big?
As Shaun said earlier, I would be having a measure up to make sure.

I also think that the section between flow and return will act more like an open by-pass than a low loss header due to it's design. That could cause issues with short cycling (in my opinion).
Maybe that's why the boiler is always at high temp and the system isn't making it?
(Sammathias said same).
Click to expand...
Hi last,

Thanks for your and all the other inputs on this thread.

The property has 300m2 which has on every single floor ufh except from the basement which is refurbished into a work office, bathroom, utility and sleeping area.

I am currently doing a hydraulic plan with my mate from Vaillant. Attached you can see what we work on. I am going to calculate the heat loss the next days as well as determine how many kw output I require and then I will know if the meter is suitable or if it’s related to commercial works. It doesn’t seem commercial but a large domestic installation.
I agree with the bypass acting like this rather than a low loss header. But this sort of system needs one.

BD6F0979-AAEB-4467-883E-A4A42A28C95F.jpeg
 
Matchless.plumb said:
Hi last,

Thanks for your and all the other inputs on this thread.

The property has 300m2 which has on every single floor ufh except from the basement which is refurbished into a work office, bathroom, utility and sleeping area.

I am currently doing a hydraulic plan with my mate from Vaillant. Attached you can see what we work on. I am going to calculate the heat loss the next days as well as determine how many kw output I require and then I will know if the meter is suitable or if it’s related to commercial works. It doesn’t seem commercial but a large domestic installation.
I agree with the bypass acting like this rather than a low loss header. But this sort of system needs one.

View attachment 33821
Click to expand...
I would use a Header on a system like that yes. I was really saying that the way they have done it won't work as they intended. (if they did intend it to do the job of a header that is).

Have a look at the Facade Flue system by Vaillant if you do go down that road.
I have fitted a number of those now and they are spot on. I've terminated a few with the 45 deg bend and terminal piece in that.
 
Last edited:
I
Last Plumber said:
I would use a Header on a system like that yes. I was really saying that the way they have done it won't work as they intended. (if they did intend it to do the job of a header that is).

Have a look at the Facade Flue system by Vaillant if you do go down that road.
I have fitted a number of those now and they are spot on. I've terminated a few with the 45 deg bend and terminal piece in that.
Click to expand...

Thank you for coming back to me.
I spoke to Vaillant today and I just double check with a system designer if the plan we have made is alright. I also asked for a product list so it will be a lot easier to pick the right components. Thank you for the advice with the flue. I definitely need to get a bigger flue in than the normal one. However, do you know if I could just use a plume kit or will I need to divert it like in the picture?
 
cant use a plume kit
 
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