fuzzy

on this post you say the problem is the amount of apprenticeships, on the last post you said they are not worth much, which is it?

apprenticeships are the best way forawrd, if the fast track 6129 was best as you suggest them the sector skills council wouldnt be trying to stop them being run, yes thats right in 1 year you may not be able to do a 6129 unless you are employed

uug197h

how many of you guys take on apprentices and do you keep them on after they have finished there 4 years or do you get rid of them when you have to pay them a proper wage

Plumbing Forum Moderator

Mushybees

I'd imagine the only reason most plumbers would take on an apprentice is to expand their business with people who they know are capable and have the correct attitude.
Otherwise they'd employ a labourer for cheap labour. To train up an apprentice to then just let him go is to train a competitor.

I know it won't make me popular but I think the industry should be regulated so that the only people allowed to do plumbing work for money are NVQ2 level plumbers (exceptions for old hands).
My opinion is, if you can't find an apprenticeship then tough tits, you can't be a plumber. There are only so many jobs and life is hard. Dont moan, become more intelligent, more presentable and more employable than the next person.

I don't know the characters on this forum but I do know I'm happy I'm taking the long route into the industry if the attitudes displayed here are anything to go by.
After reading a few posts on apprenticeships here i'm of the opinion this place isn't for me. Infact I think it's irresponsible to have this plumbing courses and training section, all your doing is encouraging people to follow a pipe dream (no pun intended ).

ajs heating

>I'd imagine the only reason most plumbers would take on an apprentice is to expand

not on your nelly, i want people i can trust to do the job.

>Otherwise they'd employ a labourer for cheap labour

i employ engineers that have experience and i can leave to do a job to expand my business.

>I know it won't make me popular but I think the industry should be regulated so that the only people allowed to do plumbing work for money are NVQ2 level plumbers

and why would that be (not because you have your Apprenticship by any chance ?)

nvq2 or any cert don't make you a experienced or good engineer.
anyone can read a book then sit a Multiple choice exam and get 80% right.

personnally we don't need anymore plumbers full stop as the building industry has come to a slow and work is limited comparied to last yr.
so i think your all wasting your money and time.

Mushybees

> not on your nelly, i want people i can trust to do the job.

One way of ensuring, and being satisfied, that a person is up to the job is to train them yourself. Surely you would want to keep a competent person in your employ.
Keeping on someone you've trained yourself will result in you expanding your work force.


> i employ engineers that have experience and i can leave to do a job to expand my business.

So you don't train apprentices to be used as cheap labour nor do you hire labourers. You either don't need someone who can do the smaller, more straight forward jobs or don't see the value in training up new plumbers.
Clearly you're not the "most plumbers" I was referring to.


> and why would that be (not because you have your Apprenticship by any chance ?)

In part. I've committed myself to becoming a plumber and put a great deal of time and energy into it. I have a vested interest in the industry whether you believe I do or not.
Why should I do it the correct way only for someone, straight off a 10 week course with a draper value spanner, to come along and do the same work, albeit badly, for peanuts?



> nvq2 or any cert don't make you a experienced or good engineer.
anyone can read a book then sit a Multiple choice exam and get 80% right.

personnally we don't need anymore plumbers full stop as the building industry has come to a slow and work is limited comparied to last yr.
so i think your all wasting your money and time.[/quote]

So there will never again be a competent plumber (i'm wary of calling plumbers or RGIs "engineers" unless they have letters after their name). Everyone has to start somewhere, my arguement is that the beginning should be an apprenticeship.
I honestly don't know what you're arguing and i'm not sure you do either.

The only means available to even try and control the ratio of plumbers to work available is through apprenticeships.
If times are hard no-one is taken on. Makes sense surely?

We seem to be arguing the same thing which leads me to believe you either haven't read my post properly or I wasn't concise enough.

ajs heating

>S you don't train apprentices to be used as cheap labour.

no

>You either don't need someone who can do the smaller

we're plumbers so we do plumbing jobs tap washers, even guttering if im asked, drains etc.

the end of the day i can't stand out of school know it alls
and i don't have the paitants or time for the youth of today.

i agree with you that fast track courses should be stopped. but that is never going to happen
same as builders, plumbers etc you'll never be able to say everyone must have a nvq to do a trade.
nvq don't prove nothing.

Mushybees

Which answers uug197h's question. Plumbers don't take on apprentices only to let them go at the end of their training. You don't take on an apprentice for cheap labour.
If a plumber wanted cheap labour they'd hire a labourer. As I understand it there's rarely a need outside of industrial plumbing though I could be wrong.

I don't meet either of those criteria so I assume you're referring to the majority of those looking for an apprenticeship.
I was going to say i've met a few young lads out of school who have the aptitude and right attitude to do well but in hindsight there's only been one.


True though it would at least prove they've had to work under the supervision of a qualified plumber for at least two years. If done right that's generally how long it would/should take to complete the NVQ2.
It's not much but better than the free for all it is today.

mehera

I think you should wipe out apprenticeships, and go for work experinece placement instead where you really learn stuff for 3 months at a time. Or go for focused practical training that shows you the real way do do things practically with all the tricks of the trade included.

Most apprentices spend approx. 50% manuel labour 35% watching 10% doing plumbing and 5% making tea !

If you add that up over a 4 year 'time served' apprenticeship it equates to:
10 weeks acctual hands on plumbing (strangley like 10 week courses)
35 weeks watching plumbing
55 weeks lifting, making tea and listening to moaning !

Lets remake apprenticeships to be more time effeicent - no wonder there is a shortage of time served plumbers if it takes 4 years to produce a new one. We are no quantum physicists or brain surgeons - if fink you guys are responsible for the shortage if you use apprentiships to fill your coffers . . .

ajs heating

>no wonder there is a shortage of time served plumbers

but there isn't a shortage of plumbers

Mushybees

I don't know who's told you that but it's just not true.

I'm expected to pull my weight and take responsibility for the work I do. Normally i'm given a hefty chunk of the installation work to like install CWSC and F+E, install the cylinder and connect up, do first fix etc, ect.
To his credit the plumber I work for does his fair share of the mundane jobs like plungering filthy wc's and taking down soil stacks. I'd say the workload is split 60-40 between us with him having to do the tasks i'm not comfortable with.
After he's done it he explains what he did and why he did it.
After that he'll he willing for me to have a go under supervision.

The aim at the end is for me to work independantly and efficiently.
If you think it's possible to achieve that after a course or an apprenticeship of the structure you're proposing you're wrong. Dead wrong.

I don't know what you imagine an apprenticeship to be but it isn't what you've been told.