Gas Safe Engineers

[Dotty]

What you fail to take into account is that we are now in a far more litigeously minded society than we were 15, 20, 30 years ago. We are also in the middle of one of the worst depressions in early 40 years so people are more inclined to come on here to save a few quid.

YOU, meanwhile, go out and spend a couple of grand getting yourself trained to install, maintain and repair gas boilers.

Joe has a problem with his boiler, you know exactly what it is and tell him so. Joe is an engineer and thinks to himself "It's only a fan, how hard can it be?"

Joe and his family don't wake up the next morning. During the investigation into the CO poisoning case the HSE discover a print out of the UKPF page where you said "It's the fan mate."

There would be the possibilty that UKPF Admins and Mods as the forum management would be held culpable for allowing said info to be given. A remote possibility but one I'm not prepared to put to the test. Not only that I wouldn't want ANY fatalities on my conscience.

So not only have you been complicit in a death but you've managed to get the forum closed because Dan would have his hand forced by legal actions. You would also be responsible for another gsr, as equally trained and qualified, to be forced into the position of signing on because he cannot get work because we're telling Joe how to do everything.

The car analogy doesn't wash. You go through a period of training and practising under supervision. You are then rigorously tested. You are only permitted to legally go it alone if you pass those tests and adhere to the Highway Code. Failure to comply results in heavy penalties.

Whereas with the Gas Industry you go through a period of training and practising under supervision. You are then rigorously tested. You are only permitted to legally go it alone if you pass those tests and adhere to the GIUSR's. Failure to comply results in heavy penalties.

So no. The UKPF and it's members won't be offering any advice other than get a competent person in!

 

[Bernie2]

No I would not agree, drivers may have to pass a test, but how many know or should know the speed limits and do not keep them, are you suggesting speed limit signs are a waste of time? Are you supposing boiler manufacturers keep their information to themselves and only declare their people fit to install their boilers? That would virtually put the whole small business section of the gas industry out of work. You know Croppie, that when you make a report you do not state definitively what it is, you make suggestions of what it could be, that way you are not usually held by law to be responsible, it is up to the person to take it further. With the added rejoinder that you are required to meet legal requirements before you do anything. The forum should get legal advice as to what information and advice they are allowed to give rather than just put out a blanket ban. It make you look self interested which is a bit pointless for a public forum.

 

[Dotty]

We do not need legal advice. The forum rules are as they are.

You can take it or leave it.

 

[Ermintrude]

No I would not agree, drivers may have to pass a test, but how many know or should know the speed limits and do not keep them, are you suggesting speed limit signs are a waste of time? Are you supposing boiler manufacturers keep their information to themselves and only declare their people fit to install their boilers? That would virtually put the whole small business section of the gas industry out of work. You know Croppie, that when you make a report you do not state definitively what it is, you make suggestions of what it could be, that way you are not usually held by law to be responsible, it is up to the person to take it further. With the added rejoinder that you are required to meet legal requirements before you do anything. The forum should get legal advice as to what information and advice they are allowed to give rather than just put out a blanket ban. It make you look self interested which is a bit pointless for a public forum.

It's illegal for a person who lacks competence to affect any gas pathway, appliance or fitting. If you need advice and you are not a member of a group of persons approved by the HSE. The similarity with driving ends at the Identification card, picture on the front, qualifications on back. If you need advice on gas related issues your not competent...... Case and point.

 

[rpm]

As a non gsr engineer I totally agree with the old saying that a little information in the wrong hands is dangerous and none more so than on this subject but often the reply given of We will not give out .............................as a one or two line reply smacks of being High n Mighty and I can see why some OP get upset.

Instead why not direct them to the gas safe forum board or a sticky where they will see a more detailed single paragraph response on why this friendly forum is unable to repond to their question.

Don`t jump down my throat if Im out of order, Im not in the mood for fishing and this is my only post on the subject.

 

[Dotty]

As a non gsr engineer I totally agree with the old saying that a little information in the wrong hands is dangerous and none more so than on this subject but often the reply given of We will not give out .............................as a one or two line reply smacks of being High n Mighty and I can see why some OP get upset.

Instead why not direct them to the gas safe forum board or a sticky where they will see a more detailed single paragraph response on why this friendly forum is unable to repond to their question.

Don`t jump down my throat if Im out of order, Im not in the mood for fishing and this is my only post on the subject.

There's a prominent notice at the top of a few forums which expands slightly on the response I give when I close a thread.

That response is as follows....

We cannot and will not give advice on the installation or repair of boilers, cookers or ANY gas appliances for your own safety.

Please go to Gas Safe Register | Ensure your gas engineer is registered. or post a thread in the 'I'm looking for a plumber / gas engineer' section of these forums remembering to include your location. [DLMURL="http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/im-looking-plumber-gas-engineer/"]I'm looking for a Plumber or Gas Engineer[/DLMURL]

If you are gsr please increase your post count to 10+ then send a PM (Private Message) with your gsr details to either Gas man - http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/users/8668/ or Redsaw - http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/users/2718/ who will check you and then give you access to the gsr private forum.

Providing gas-related advice to anybody who should not be touching gas and cannot prove their competetence is unacceptable. We will take whatever action we deem appropriate to prevent such advice being given


Thank you.

 

[SimonG]

Here's one for you.

I was talking to an electrician today who had been doing some work in one of the local estates houses. He'd done a rewire and also fitted heat sensors, smoke alarms and a co alarm. A multi fuel stove had been installed just before somebody moved in. He saw the bloke a few days later and was told that he'd had the fire brigade out at half eleven one night as the co alarm had activated. He'd been on his way to bed and the rest of the family was asleep. Fire brigade was there all night venting the house. Incorrectly installed stove, issues with the flue.

Now the interesting part of the story and it gobsmacked me. The electrician had said that he thought that only gas appliances had the ability to kill you through carbon monoxide poisoning.

Luckily all the family were fine, but people's understanding , or lack of, when it comes to combustion is astounding.

 

[Kyle87]

I think it also has something to do with people thinking natural gas is highly toxic.

I hear people all the time saying things like

"I didn't want to gas myself"

Or

Could it gas me? (When talking about faulty appliance)

They seem to think about it being poisonous more so than explosive


Obviously the Co is but I mean when they turn a hob on without igniting it

 

[Ermintrude]

Still surprises me how few people have smoke detectors or painted over spot type CO indicators from 2001!

 

[lame plumber]

another youngster just found dead in her tent yesterday locally, probably co poisoning again!

 

[Dotty]

Ah no!

How long before they learn it's bloody stupid to run a bbq in the tents of today?

Mind you when we were camping as kids dad used to hang up a gas fired lamp. I think the gale whistling through our old tent may have been a godsend!

 

[Kyle87]

another youngster just found dead in her tent yesterday locally, probably co poisoning again!

To be fair the awareness just isn't there.

I remember camping a few years ago. Before learning anything about gas.

We were using a gas lamp to heat the tent as we were freezing. Had a LPG two hob burner in the tent with just a small zip open for ventilation.

At the time it was just complete ignorance but if there were any warnings on the equipment I was using it obviously didn't catch my attention.

I could have killed myself and the ball and chain.

More seriously needs to be done to promote awareness.

 

[Masood]

To be fair the awareness just isn't there.

I remember camping a few years ago. Before learning anything about gas.

We were using a gas lamp to heat the tent as we were freezing. Had a LPG two hob burner in the tent with just a small zip open for ventilation.

At the time it was just complete ignorance but if there were any warnings on the equipment I was using it obviously didn't catch my attention.

I could have killed myself and the ball and chain.

More seriously needs to be done to promote awareness.

This is very true, and very serious. None of my camping cooking gear has any warnings about CO, just about not setting the tent on fire...

 

[Kyle87]

This is very true, and very serious. None of my camping cooking gear has any warnings about CO, just about not setting the tent on fire...

Also it really wouldn't take much for the camping sites to have a sign warning people. Maybe some leaflets etc

 

[Dotty]

I do quite a bit of work on the sites over here, I think I'll have a chat with the wardens and bang some notices up.

If it makes people think again that's good enough for me!

 

[Kyle87]

People just don't understand that the flame uses air. When flame has used most of the air it struggles and produces co.
it's so simple

If you could explain it in a single line and give it a 15 second advert on TV I think you could save a few lives

 

[Masood]

I do quite a bit of work on the sites over here, I think I'll have a chat with the wardens and bang some notices up.

If it makes people think again that's good enough for me!

Top man! I live very close to Gilwell Park and know a few of the scout leaders. Will have a chat there as well. Could tie it in to Gas Safety week...

 

[SimonG]

We could knock gas safe week on the head and all the other 'well meaning' but pointless awareness attempts and stick a 15 to 20 second info advert on in between corrie or eastenders with some hard facts on combustion.

 

[Dotty]

Perhaps a CO related fatality on one of those soaps. One of the big names.

Corrie's got a few embarrassing employees at the moment it could afford to lose!

 

[SimonG]

Could just gas the whole street/square for me.

 

[mountainman]

Could just gas the whole street/square for me.

Can I help you do it please?

 

[SimonG]

As long as some of it can be attributed to dodgy oil appliances

 

[mountainman]

I think we need some help from Bruce Willis for a proper job.

Police car brings down helicopter carrying 5000 litre LPG tank surrounded by a 10000 litre diesel tank directly above the Kabin at midnight on new years eve.
The explosion created a tsunami which wiped out Home Farm and a five mile radius around the Woolpack.

Now, that's what I call TV

 

[Bernie2]

Not knowing possibly causes more accidents than information. In the gsr industry people seem largely not knowing about safety and do not see the reason for danger until you tell them. But the Gas Safety Register is supposed to help ensure peoples safety but possibly only if they know what they are being kept safe from. If a person thinks getting in a gsr fitter is going to cost them far more that they can afford and they think the job is easy based on not knowing they will probably have a go themselves. That is not promoting safe practices. By giving out information you are warning them as to the dangers, if they then go ahead and still do it, that problem is theirs. You at least tried to warn them it was not simple. Anyway they can always buy Torreys or Viper books they have been available for years to the general public. A GSR fitters job is to promote safety not form a secret club.

 

[AWheating]

Another one that i often get into arguments over is site generators. Why do carpenters and others think its ok to use a generator by the front door or even worse just inside the property. I even had one carpenter who laughted at me when i told him to move his generator from the front door of the house we were both working in.

Its one thing to be stupid enough to kill yourself, its another to put others health at risk or even worse murder somebody.

 

[Dotty]

Not knowing possibly causes more accidents than information. In the gsr industry people seem largely not knowing about safety and do not see the reason for danger until you tell them. But the Gas Safety Register is supposed to help ensure peoples safety but possibly only if they know what they are being kept safe from. If a person thinks getting in a gsr fitter is going to cost them far more that they can afford and they think the job is easy based on not knowing they will probably have a go themselves. That is not promoting safe practices. By giving out information you are warning them as to the dangers, if they then go ahead and still do it, that problem is theirs. You at least tried to warn them it was not simple. Anyway they can always buy Torreys or Viper books they have been available for years to the general public. A GSR fitters job is to promote safety not form a secret club.

How many times do I have to say no?

 

[Dotty]

Another one that i often get into arguments over is site generators. Why do carpenters and others think its ok to use a generator by the front door or even worse just inside the property. I even had one carpenter who laughted at me when i told him to move his generator from the front door of the house we were both working in.

Its one thing to be stupid enough to kill yourself, its another to put others health at risk or even worse murder somebody.

I had to run a genny in the back of my van earlier this year because it was too large to pull out on my own. I had all the doors open while I was working but thought i'd leave a CO monitor on the dashboard while i was working.

Bearing in mind the van was ventilated and there's a bulkhead fitted the CO detector peaked at 470ppm after only 5 minutes running! (I was fusion welding an LPG service pipe in the middle of a field.)

Needless to say I made sure the genny was turned off and all the doors remained open a good half hour before I got in the van!

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

Not knowing possibly causes more accidents than information. In the gsr industry people seem largely not knowing about safety and do not see the reason for danger until you tell them. But the Gas Safety Register is supposed to help ensure peoples safety but possibly only if they know what they are being kept safe from. If a person thinks getting in a gsr fitter is going to cost them far more that they can afford and they think the job is easy based on not knowing they will probably have a go themselves. That is not promoting safe practices. By giving out information you are warning them as to the dangers, if they then go ahead and still do it, that problem is theirs. You at least tried to warn them it was not simple. Anyway they can always buy Torreys or Viper books they have been available for years to the general public. A GSR fitters job is to promote safety not form a secret club.

if you dont like the way we promote gas safety on this site bernie or agree with the orange headings we would rather you not contribute to the forums,you are on some sort of mission to undermine what we are trying to achieve there is no secret club we just dot want anyone to die by the advice given on here

 

[AWheating]

I had to run a genny in the back of my van earlier this year because it was too large to pull out on my own. I had all the doors open while I was working but thought i'd leave a CO monitor on the dashboard while i was working.

Bearing in mind the van was ventilated and there's a bulkhead fitted the CO detector peaked at 470ppm after only 5 minutes running! (I was fusion welding an LPG service pipe in the middle of a field.)

Needless to say I made sure the genny was turned off and all the doors remained open a good half hour before I got in the van!

atleast you used your head.

it does not take very long for co off a generator to get to dangerous levels. In the USA there are alot of deaths every year from generators, They keep them for backup power when hurricane/twister season hit. Many get them out and use them in there safe room/shelter when the powers down.

you also have to take into consideration your PLI, my old policy required a generator to be used 3m from property to avoid fire damage. I worked on a site many years ago where the plasterer filled his up while smoking, he drop his *** and it when up. His problem was the generator was inside the front door and it burnt half the house down.

 

[Bernie2]

We can all do stupid things Croppie and publish it on the website making others think its okay. Seems to me we might be using a set of double standards which says some people can do what ever they want but others must do as they are told. One of the main safety factors is knowledge. A popular DIY expert was on the TV recently and said, I know all about how that thing works but I am not qualified to fix it. It was his knowledge that stopped him DIYing not his ignorance. Incidentally you and "gas man" give me the impression that you now own this site now or is Dan still the boss?Incidentally I was once a moderator on the site for a short time, so I know how far your brief extends. Its a Plumbers forum not a gas fitters and one that is supposedly welcome to all, so lets be a bit more tolerant to others please. If you want to keep things secret go off line and e-mail each other, secrecy is not what a forum is supposed to be about. I know what your viewpoint is, I just do not agree with it that is all. But you seem to project a threatening and bullying attitude all the time, perhaps not intentionally but you still seem to do it.

 

[Dotty]

We can all do stupid things Croppie and publish it on the website making others think its okay. Seems to me we might be using a set of double standards which says some people can do what ever they want but others must do as they are told. One of the main safety factors is knowledge. A popular DIY expert was on the TV recently and said, I know all about how that thing works but I am not qualified to fix it. It was his knowledge that stopped him DIYing not his ignorance. Incidentally you and "gas man" give me the impression that you now own this site now or is Dan still the boss?Incidentally I was once a moderator on the site for a short time, so I know how far your brief extends. Its a Plumbers forum not a gas fitters and one that is supposedly welcome to all, so lets be a bit more tolerant to others please. If you want to keep things secret go off line and e-mail each other, secrecy is not what a forum is supposed to be about. I know what your viewpoint is, I just do not agree with it that is all. But you seem to project a threatening and bullying attitude all the time, perhaps not intentionally but you still seem to do it.

Think I understand why you were a mod for only a short while. If a point blank "NO! These are the forum rules! You need to be of the class of person who is proven and qualified to work on gas and gas appliances as described in the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998." cannot be understood nor comprehended then there is something seriously wrong with that individual.

And if you see that as threatening or bullying then you have led a very sheltered life!

 

[Barry98]

And maybe "the brief" was changed after learning from mistakes made in the past

 

[Markus]

In my experience you have to know who you are dealing with before giving out advise relating to gas work and the context it will be used for. A piece of advise may cover one point, what about the other five points that have to be tested for the work to be safe. A little knowledge can be dangerous, all for the forum rules myself

 

[Bernie2]

Markus, if we ask ourselves, did the people who taught us gas fitting ask whether we where suitable to know it, answers that question. I am all for people knowing about gas, its just that the courses relating to safety should be free. The training of gas fitters in the past was usually undertaken mostly by the companies who wanted to use gas fitters. The modern idea of courses leaves it open to anybody so there is no real point in asking who is suitable to know about gas and who is not. As I have said before there is nothing wrong with giving advice it is the person who receives the advices responsibility to use it properly. The same way as a gas tutor views it when he teaches students. So if you inform people about the legal requirements of gas fitting before you tell them and give a disclaimer there is no real reason why you should not tell people.

 

[Kyle87]

Markus, if we ask ourselves, did the people who taught us gas fitting ask whether we where suitable to know it, answers that question. I am all for people knowing about gas, its just that the courses relating to safety should be free. The training of gas fitters in the past was usually undertaken mostly by the companies who wanted to use gas fitters. The modern idea of courses leaves it open to anybody so there is no real point in asking who is suitable to know about gas and who is not. As I have said before there is nothing wrong with giving advice it is the person who receives the advices responsibility to use it properly. The same way as a gas tutor views it when he teaches students. So if you inform people about the legal requirements of gas fitting before you tell them and give a disclaimer there is no real reason why you should not tell people.

I don't agree. That's like saying here's a gun. Ill tell you how to use it but if you kill someone that's your fault not mine.

People who undertake gas training have spent a lot of money on it. Like me. They are potential engineers. And obviously seek gas registration in the future.

People on the open forum may be potential engineers also with good intentions ( like myself ). But they may also be diyers or cowboys looking to abuse the info they receive. I
Don't blame ukpf for not taking the chance.

I'd love to be in the GSR only forum as I'd learn a ton. But I understand why I'm not allowed.

Bernie......give up the fight mate!!