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Qualifcations

Discuss Qualifcations at UK Plumbers Forums; It needs to be better, but the true numpties might become even more dangerous by going underground....
  1. #25
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    Default Re: Qualifcations

    It needs to be better, but the true numpties might become even more dangerous by going underground.
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    Default Re: Qualifcations

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonG View Post
    It needs to be better, but the true numpties might become even more dangerous by going underground.
    True.
    There will always be numpties !
    They will always DIY

  3. #27
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    Default Re: Qualifcations

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonG View Post
    oil by oil people etc.
    Interestingly, oil has by far the best track record, with only 6 recorded deaths from CO poisoning from oil appliances from 1995 to 2013. That compares with 99 deaths from CO caused by LPG appliances in the same period, and 200 from solid fuel.
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    Default Re: Qualifcations

    The trouble is there is more of a DIY approach when LPG is concerned in the leisure industry. Camping and Gas BBQ's are all bits worked on by DIYers and it can sometimes prove fatal. Oil on the other hand, apart from the odd workshop heater most appliances are fixed with permanent flues.
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    Default Re: Qualifcations

    The sensible head would think LPG don't touch it with a barge pole. But people will never let ye down in the stupidity department

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    Default Re: Qualifcations

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Stafford View Post
    Interestingly, oil has by far the best track record, with only 6 recorded deaths from CO poisoning from oil appliances from 1995 to 2013. That compares with 99 deaths from CO caused by LPG appliances in the same period, and 200 from solid fuel.
    Just to play devils advocate ( and I know that this includes my own comments )
    We could say lets stop selling electrical items to anyone but electricians and that would not go down well either.

    How many deaths by electrocution Ray ?
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  7. #31
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    Default Re: Qualifcations

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Plumber View Post
    Just to play devils advocate ( and I know that this includes my own comments )
    We could say lets stop selling electrical items to anyone but electricians and that would not go down well either.

    How many deaths by electrocution Ray ?
    I don't have the official stats, but a quick google search suggests its now a similar order of magnitude to CO deaths attributable to natural gas, although it was a lot more in the 60s and 70s. I suspect that electrocution may be secondary to fire as a cause of death attributable to electrical faults.

    However, there is a clear villain in the DIY sector which caused mayhem and death way beyond anything that gas or electricity can ever dream of.

    Boo and hiss girls and boys, at the vicious, the nasty, the downright homicidal...

    ...LADDER!
    Last edited by Ray Stafford; 1 Week Ago at 02:03 PM.
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  8. #32
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    Default Re: Qualifcations

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Stafford View Post
    and won't bore regular posters with repeats,
    Ok. So I lied. Here's what I wrote last time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Stafford
    I have been thinking about this issue, and have discussed it endlessly over nearly 30 years.

    There are three basic factors here:

    Enforceability
    Equivalences
    Proportionality

    Enforceability is a problem for several reasons. The biggest one are that the majority of the sales of gas appliances are not to registered installers, but are still perfectly legitimate. They are either sales down the supply chain (ie, Manufacturer > Distributor > Merchant) or sales to organisations who quite reasonably want to purchase the materials, despite having no intention of fitting them illegally. A large proportion of our sales are to Councils, HAs, Universities, MOD establishments and a whole range of other public and private non-GSR organisations. There is also the issue of whether a particular item is a "gas product" or not. Lots of things are dual purpose.

    Equivalence presents another issue. If we seek such protection for the sale of items related to our industry, we must expect other industries to make similar arguments for equally draconian regulation. So sorry, you can't wire your own plug, maintain your own car, mend your own roof, or even use your own sex-toys! Poorly maintained cars kill FAR more people than poorly maintained gas appliances, and more people are hurt doing DIY up ladders on their own house than are affected by CO poisoning. Hospital A&E departments regularly have to remove objects from orifices in which they have no place being, and this would never happen if they were only sold to competent sex-workers.

    Finally, we have proportionality. Starting from the point that "its a free country", as a society we accept a range of limits on our freedom for the collective good. We accept quite stringent limits on things like the practice of medicine, ownership of firearms or explosives because of the high likelihood of frequent unpleasant consequences if we don't. Moving down the chain of potential risk, we regulate bus and truck drivers more than car drivers because the consequences of their failures are greater.

    At the bottom of the regulatory pyramid are the activities that merely require you to be a certain age, and consenting - like drinking alcohol, smoking, having sex or joining the armed forces. They key to this is proportionality - the degree of regulation is proportionate to the frequency and severity of the harm that would ensue in the absence of regulation. Increasing the level of regulation on the gas appliance market would simply be disproportionate - the benefits do not outweigh the costs.

    And before someone comes out with the old argument "surely its worth it, if just a single life is saved...?" Nope. On that basis we would have a speed limit on all roads of 20mph which would pretty much eliminate road deaths. But the cost is unacceptably high.

    So, much as I understand the sentiment, I absolutely don't support legal limits on the sale of gas appliances. Or electrical fittings. Or car parts. Or ladders.

    Or sex toys.



    I should add that we don't sell anything to DIYers. However, assuming a customer is a genuine tradesman, we also don't try to act as the industry busybody or policeman. Having said that, all our branch managers have a standing instruction to refuse to sell ANY product if they are doubtful about safety, and they will always have my backing if they choose to exercise that discretion.
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  10. #33
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    Default Re: Qualifcations

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Stafford View Post
    However, there is a clear villain in the DIY sector which caused mayhem and death way beyond anything that gas or electricity can ever dream of.

    Boo and hiss girls and boys, at the vicious, the nasty, the downright homicidal...

    ...LADDER!
    Licenses for ladders then!!!!
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    Regards

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    Default Re: Qualifcations

    Outright ban on ladders to anyone except Fire service ????

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    Default Re: Qualifcations

    I would be happy with that. Hate the things. I wouldn't have to get on roofs anymore except by if there is a scaffold
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