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Qualifcations

Discuss Qualifcations at UK Plumbers Forums; Originally Posted by Last Plumber A good start as previously mentioned, would be to stop the sale of gas related parts and equipment to anyone who is not qualified and ...
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    Default Re: Qualifcations

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Plumber View Post
    A good start as previously mentioned, would be to stop the sale of gas related parts and equipment to anyone who is not qualified and competent.

    The trouble is, that would also stop the money spinning.

    ......

    Again, money rules.
    I would expect a backlash - underground market - of cheap GREY imports would pop up ...and hence even worse quality.
    Now what you are working on may not even be genuine ! .... Crime + Money
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    Default Re: Qualifcations

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Plumber View Post
    A good start as previously mentioned, would be to stop the sale of gas related parts and equipment to anyone who is not qualified and competent.
    I see this more often on social media than any other suggestion. Unfortunately, I don't believe it would save a single life. Not one. In fact, it would probably cost lives.

    I have posted at length on this subject before, and won't bore regular posters with repeats, but I will add another point upon which I did not dwell in my previous refutations.

    The idea that preventing the sale of (say) a gas cooker hose to a have-a-go-hero will prevent a dodgy installation is based on the entirely false premise that once refused service in B&Q or at his local merchant, joe public will suddenly see the light, promptly give up his penny-pinching ways, and immediately engage the services of a GSR engineer. Sure, some will do that. But a significant minority, denied access to the correct product for the job, will decide that a few feet of garden hose and a couple of jubilee clips will do just as well. The unintended consequence of our "safety initiative" is another house explosion.

    The current regime can very legitimately claim to be highly effective in terms of saving lives. The death rate from CO poisoning and/or explosion from natural gas has been steadily descending for years, and in 2011/12 we had our first ever year with zero deaths attributable to natural gas. It regrettably rose to 3 in the following year, but back in the 1990s we regularly used to bury 20 - 30 people a year. In that same year of 2011/12, solid fuel caused 9 deaths - despite the much smaller numbers of solid fuel appliances.
    Last Plumber and CHRISX like this.
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    Default Re: Qualifcations

    Thing is for room sealed boiler to kill someone takes a bloody lot of things to go wrong, its an incredibly safe appliance.

    The fact that thousands of boilers get fitted by incompetent clueless and careless cowboys yet still so few accidents happen is a testament to that.

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    Default Re: Qualifcations

    I still think there is a lot of room for public education on the matter. Yes you will always get some clever dick that thinks they know better but I hate that Joe public have no idea who gas Safe are. With that in mind I also carry that mindset across to a lot of people doing illegal installs. There is literally no deterrent, none at all. Basically a lot of people are willing to take the economic risk of getting caught and fined but all they do is install a couple more boilers and that's it paid for. It is completely the wrong mentality and the sooner that they do away with the legislation rubbish of "competent" rather than "licensed to" The better I will feel about the situation
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    IMPORTANT: Carbon Monoxide can be produced when ANY fuel is burnt, including oil, gas, wood and coal.


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    Default Re: Qualifcations

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Stafford View Post
    I see this more often on social media than any other suggestion. Unfortunately, I don't believe it would save a single life. Not one. In fact, it would probably cost lives.

    I have posted at length on this subject before, and won't bore regular posters with repeats, but I will add another point upon which I did not dwell in my previous refutations.

    The idea that preventing the sale of (say) a gas cooker hose to a have-a-go-hero will prevent a dodgy installation is based on the entirely false premise that once refused service in B&Q or at his local merchant, joe public will suddenly see the light, promptly give up his penny-pinching ways, and immediately engage the services of a GSR engineer. Sure, some will do that. But a significant minority, denied access to the correct product for the job, will decide that a few feet of garden hose and a couple of jubilee clips will do just as well. The unintended consequence of our "safety initiative" is another house explosion.

    The current regime can very legitimately claim to be highly effective in terms of saving lives. The death rate from CO poisoning and/or explosion from natural gas has been steadily descending for years, and in 2011/12 we had our first ever year with zero deaths attributable to natural gas. It regrettably rose to 3 in the following year, but back in the 1990s we regularly used to bury 20 - 30 people a year. In that same year of 2011/12, solid fuel caused 9 deaths - despite the much smaller numbers of solid fuel appliances.
    I can only speak for myself here Ray.

    I personally would not sell, for example, a Multifunctional gas valve, to some DIY obsessed penny pinching individual.

    This is because I think it would be irresponsible and morally wrong, to do so, knowing that the DIY obsessed penny pinching individual could easily cause damage to life or property.


    That is however, something I see various merchants do on a regular basis.

    Whatever your view on preventative ideas or suggestions, you must see where I am coming from ?

    If you do sell to such people in such, do you not feel that you are condoning their actions?

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    Default Re: Qualifcations

    I do agree with last plumber relating to replacement parts however I don't think you can stop somebody buying a boiler or a fire or a hob otherwise all of a sudden we get accused of cronyism and price-fixing I have said in the past and Ray has said in the past with appliances use your gas safe card with a chip and pin as you do to pay a bill only somebody with a gas safe card can commission and turn on an appliance it's so simple but none of the manufacturers will do it because it cost too much money
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    IMPORTANT: Carbon Monoxide can be produced when ANY fuel is burnt, including oil, gas, wood and coal.


    GSR? Want gas safety or boiler repair advice? We will check out that you're genuine via the gas safe website, so please dont be offended when we ask for your details. DIYers, odd job people and have a go heroes need not apply.

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    Default Re: Qualifcations

    Quote Originally Posted by Riley View Post
    I do agree with last plumber relating to replacement parts however I don't think you can stop somebody buying a boiler or a fire or a hob otherwise all of a sudden we get accused of cronyism and price-fixing I have said in the past and Ray has said in the past with appliances use your gas safe card with a chip and pin as you do to pay a bill only somebody with a gas safe card can commission and turn on an appliance it's so simple but none of the manufacturers will do it because it cost too much money
    I have said similar myself. If every boiler had a lock off that could only be reset with a gas safe card, You'd have cracked it.

    The thing is, money rules the game and it will always be the same.

    I also agree with the other point Riley made re-economic risk.

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    Default Re: Qualifcations

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Plumber View Post
    I personally would not sell, for example, a Multifunctional gas valve, to some DIY obsessed penny pinching individual.
    Neither would I.

    But there is an enormous difference between not making the sale that you describe, and banning the sale of gas related items to non GSRs.

    Just as an example, well over half, and probably as many as 75% of sales of gas boilers are not to GSRs.

    Thats right - nearly three quarters.

    But these are not irresponsible or dangerous sales. They are just sales that you aren't considering in your ban plan.

    Manufacturer sells to merchant. Not GSR
    Manufacturer sells to distributor. Not GSR.
    Distributor sells to merchant. Not GSR
    Merchant sells to another mechant. Not GSR.
    Merchant sells to Council, Housing association, ministry of defence, university, hospital, housebuilder, indeed, any one of hundreds of perfectly legitimate organisations who have a right to buy and sell products freely in a free country, and without any intent of illegal fitting, and with zero risk to the public.

    Its simply disproportionate to ban these transactions - many, many millions of them across all gas products - in order to acheive what? To drive the have-a-go hero to purchase a 2nd hand appliance on ebay (how do you police that?) and do something still more dangerous?
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    Default Re: Qualifcations

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Stafford View Post
    Neither would I.

    But there is an enormous difference between not making the sale that you describe, and banning the sale of gas related items to non GSRs.

    Just as an example, well over half, and probably as many as 75% of sales of gas boilers are not to GSRs.

    Thats right - nearly three quarters.

    But these are not irresponsible or dangerous sales. They are just sales that you aren't considering in your ban plan.

    Manufacturer sells to merchant. Not GSR
    Manufacturer sells to distributor. Not GSR.
    Distributor sells to merchant. Not GSR
    Merchant sells to another mechant. Not GSR.
    Merchant sells to Council, Housing association, ministry of defence, university, hospital, housebuilder, indeed, any one of hundreds of perfectly legitimate organisations who have a right to buy and sell products freely in a free country, and without any intent of illegal fitting, and with zero risk to the public.

    Its simply disproportionate to ban these transactions - many, many millions of them across all gas products - in order to acheive what? To drive the have-a-go hero to purchase a 2nd hand appliance on ebay (how do you police that?) and do something still more dangerous?
    I agree with a lot of what you say.

    A lot of those sales/customers you mention, are and have legitimate reasons for buying. For example, If you sell a thousand boilers to a building firm for a housing estate, fine, someone has to do that and I have no problem with it.

    My Ban Plan Ray, is more concerned with the sales of boiler parts that goes on over the counter to people who are obviously going to go away and fix their own or other peoples boilers.

    I realise that this ban is nigh on impossible and will never be attempted.

    You must understand why there is frustration felt by legitimate GSR engineers who see Non registered people buying and installing parts.

    The suggestions made by myself and others are born of that frustration.

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    Default Re: Qualifcations

    That's a fair point from Ray regarding boiler sales.
    I also agree with proof of GSR for sale of spares.
    I've been asked about 2 or 3 times for my card from suppliers when buying spares.

    Maybe another way to improve safety is for the customer to have to provide a cert to energy supplier yearly to prove that their appliance has been serviced by a qualified person.
    No cert and gas is turned off.
    This could work in domestic and commercial situations.
    So no proof of service and your gas is turned off.
    That'd get rid of non registered cowboys in the service end. Having to supply your GSR details (RGII in Ireland) would put the skids on the repair end alot
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    Default Re: Qualifcations

    This topic is always a good read.

    Wholeheartedly agree that gas work should be done by gas people and oil by oil people etc.

    But where do you draw the line? Lots of multi discipline parts.
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    Default Re: Qualifcations

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonG View Post
    This topic is always a good read.

    Wholeheartedly agree that gas work should be done by gas people and oil by oil people etc.

    But where do you draw the line? Lots of multi discipline parts.
    It's never going to have a solution that suits everyone involved is it?

    The subject/Trade is massive

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